I have a couple of locos that seem to be severely under-powered and not very prototypical.
How do you generate the figures needed for the engine spec? I'm guessing you use some software or spreadsheet where you enter some details - and then it generates the throttle power results for you?
I've tried using Trainz Engine Editor - but that software appears to be quite old now, and when I've entered the relevant details into that, the numbers generated also seem to underpower the loco.
I found a spreadsheet on the Auran forums - which seems to be a lot better - but still generating about 20%-30% less power than lower than I feel a loco should be.
Engine specs seem to be one area where it seems to be a bit of an art - yet there's very little instruction as to how to get a really good, fairly accurate, engine spec.
It's one area where I'm really struggling
Any help or tips as to how you guys produce your engine specs please?
Can't help with the how, but I have noticed the same. In particular the HSTs which wheelspin on anything other than minimal throttle, and Snowsignal's Voyager which has a top speed of about 80 in cab mode. Love to know how to correct these as it spoils the enjoyment somewhat.
The HST spec is quite old now and might need updating with a max tractive effort tag, which is a relatively recent change. The basic problem with the HST is that it doesn't weigh much and has a lot of power so is prone to wheelslip. I'm pretty sure they are slower off the mark than other diesel classess, but pick up very quickly once full power is available from 35 mph. You really shouldn't use more than notch 2 below this speed. The real HSTs never had any fancy traction control so wheelspin is a problem for real drivers too.
It's suprising that even after 40 years there is very little information around on how fast HSTs actually accelerate. The ideal log would cover 0 - 125 mph at maximum effort without any speed restrictions, but this applies to very few locations in the country.
I must disagree with you there, ref: acceleration and wheelslip. HST's, in the real world, have a phenomenal rate of acceleration and suffer very, very rarely with any sort of wheelslip except in the worst of rail conditions in wet weather. Also, as a former driver of these trains, I can assure you that it is quite acceptable (line speed permitting) to open the throttle wide open once you have got your train moving at about 10 or 15 mph. You won't be doing 10 or 15 mph for very long, believe me; and you won't be doing any harm to the train. Just keep an eye on how many amps you're drawing.
Also, unlike pretty well any other disc braked trains/stock, HST's actually have a "scrubber" system. Brake blocks on each power car that are used specifically to clean the rubbish off the wheels in order to prevent problems with rail adhesion. These are in addition to the disc brakes whose duty it is to slow/stop the train. I did hear a rumour, however, that these privatised companies - in their penny pinching ways - decided it was an expense they could do without and isolated the brake block system. How true that is I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I have noticed in Trainz that wheelslip when accelerating is something of a farce. It is extremely unrealistic and most frustrating. Even a DMU in Trainz throws up wheelslip when the throttle is opened to max. As anyone who has ever been anywhere near a DMU will tell you, there are only 2 positions on a DMU throttle. Wide open and shut. To try any other way of driving one would not only be comical but an unmitigated disaster. Sprinter trains were also driven in the same manner (more so the earlier types, 150, 153, 155, 156, 158) - but not in Trainz.
Wheelslip is generally only a problem on the railways in Britain when/where there are poor rail conditions (damp, wet, Autumn type conditions, snow and ice or light rain after a long dry spell) or when trying to pull very heavy trains up an incline. One of the exceptions to that rule was the Class 86/2's and, particularly, the Class 87 loco's. They were so powerful you could get wheelslip at 100 mph on a passenger train if you were too eager.
That's very interesting to hear, and not something that can be picked up from the diagram books.
I assume you are talking about the Valenta engined HSTs? If so, then the technical information says full power is not available until 35 mph, and I assume the load regulator prevents too much power being delivered even if the throttle is set to full? Even so the max tractive effort is quoted at 11.6% adhesion, a very low figure compared to the usual 20-25%. I still have never seen a published tractive effort curve for an HST to explain the relationship between max and continuous TE, so some guess work has been required. The information about the wheel scrubber system is very interesting...
Sadly trainz struggles to model HST type trains, and diesel mechanical transmissions, well. Though the more recent max tractive effort tag does help a bit.
I'll look at updating the espec with this tag. If you have information on how long it takes for an HST to get to 100 and 125mph at full power from rest, that would be very useful.
Yes, I was referring to the Valenta's. Sadly, I dumped all my technical stuff when I retired (on health grounds.) Please don't think that I'm being critical of your work in Trainz because that is not so at all. I was just trying to relay my experience of HST's. I think there is a lot of "technical stuff" that gets written when these Trains are designed and manufactured but my experience has always been that very little of this information is updated after delivery unless it is safety specific. It is usually just after delivery where all the little tweeks and changes occur to overcome irritating little problems etc, but little of it gets documented unless, as I said, it is safety critical.
We were not supposed to be able to get full brake cylinder pressure above 110 mph. This was, I believe, to stop excessive wear on the brake pads and prevent overheating, but there was always somebody who could tell you how to do it if you really wanted to. Even an emergency brake application at speeds above 110 mph would not give you maximum brake cylinder pressure, but as soon as you hit 110 the needles on the cylinder gauges went straight to the 10 to 2 position and the speedo dropped like a stone. I believe that in an emergency an HST could go from 125 mph to 0 in just under three quarters of a mile. You could really feel the stopping power.
We used to be issued with beautifully detailed (BR33056) booklets/pages detailing everything from preparation procedures, technical information on fuel, air and water systems, brake systems, equipment layout and, most importantly, faults and failures guides. If you could get hold of one of them it would be very handy for you (however, I fear they are like gold dust these days.)
After privatisation, there were no 33056's. It degenerated to very poor photocopies of A4 sheets copied from God knows where. In BR days, there used to be 33056's for every type of traction. I really wish I'd kept mine because they were beautifully detailed and printed. We took so much for granted back then though.
For such an iconic train it really does surprise me that the technical and operation aspects are so little known about. There must be a decent book out there somewhere, but the internet has very little.
I presume the lack of technical info for HST's probably comes down to the split over whether they're a multiple unit or loco. Some people still regard them as a DMU. Some view them as a loco. Under BR, they had period's of being classed as both.
All of the books I've got list the Tractive Effort, Continuous Effort, HP, etc of locos - but multiple units don't have that same info displayed.
Also, I'm sure I've read before that, although the Class 43's were allocated to one class as locos, as DMU's, they were regarded as Class 253 and 254 - and the Class 254 engines/gearboxes were configured slightly different to allow for the extra power needed to haul the extra carriage (The 254's were the 8-carriaged sets - whereas the 253's were the 7-carriaged sets).
I remember the HST's were released as multiple units (DMU's), as you quite rightly say, under the classification 253 and 254. As far as I'm aware, 254's were 9 car sets used on the Eastern Region and the 253's were - again, as you say - 7 car sets, used on the Western Region and then later by us on the Midland Region.
One of the few technical details I remember is that the rear power car runs at a higher RPM because that is the car that provides the power for the ETS (Air Con etc.) Furthermore, if a driver shuts the desk down and removes his key it takes a minimum of 3 mins to release the brakes again once the desk has been reopened (I've no idea why.) To get round this we just used to give a key to the driver you were relieving. When you, in turn, were relieved you would take a key from the relieving driver; leaving the desk open at all times. However, this method often fell down at New Street due to HST's arriving and departing via the same end of the station (effectively reversing the train.) E.G. Arrive from the North via Monument Lane Tunnel, reverse (change ends) and depart to South West via the Gloucester Tunnels.
Sorry if this is off-topic, but does anyone know of a high max speed (ie ~150 mph) and high acceleration/deceleration engine spec, suitable for use when using trainz for modelling purposes rather than using trainz to take into account real-life physics? Something like the class 323 enginespec, but with a higher maximum speed would be ideal. Thanks
Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd bump this rather old one as I'm asking pretty much the same thing.
I decided to have a go at altering an engine spec on the TANE test track (namely that of the HST) in an attempt to alleviate the wheel slip and improve acceleration, however, the only thing I've succeeded in doing thus far is reducing the brake release time to something more realistic. I've seen a few videos where the drivers have the power controller in notch 4 before reaching 20mph but this appears impossible in TANE.
I've tried this forum and the N3V one to find something in the wiki about engine spec but beyond a basic explanation of the editor, there's next to nothing. There are some bits of info about pre TANE specs but a lot of this doesn't seem to relate to the values in the editor.
