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 Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock 
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 Post subject: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:24 am 
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Recently on the N3V forums there has been discussion around commissioned work and appropriate prices.

The best way to go about this in my opinion is to group-fund a commission from a talented/established content creator. It is only going to get more difficult to create content from here on out and I think crowdfunding would be best, since everyone gets a slice of the finished product, and releasing it for free on the DLS would avoid any legal trouble with copyright of the scripts used etc..

Look at Ocemy's spectacular Deltic cab for TANE, and imagine if he ended up doing a whole new Deltic model with that attention to detail. It would be expensive to commission for a single person, but manageable if many people contribute to the price. The problem is, I don't know many creators that would willingly commission such work and actually care about the quality/accuracy.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Ron


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:13 pm 
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I don't want to be a "nay sayer" but the first expression that springs to mind, Ron, is in regard to something about opening a whole new can of worms. It is difficult to find a large enough core of people to agree on ANYTHING on the N3V forum at the best of times. This idea, whilst pretty sensible and forward looking, would undoubtedly cause absolute mayhem "over there." Add to that the notion that you're asking someone to volunteer to take on a series of very high pressure tasks with the old adage "You can please some of the people some of the time... etc" always hovering above their head, it would take a very "special" person to step in and accept the challenge - bearing in mind that there is a very fine line between "special" and "absolute nutcase."

Then there's the number of arguments that would arise about the type of content being produced: "There's too much/not enough American stuff; There's too much/not enough European stuff; Why can't we have more British steam engines made? Where's the Australian stuff?" And on and on it would go. Patience is a virtue; but it is sadly lacking in the majority of people, especially when they want something in a hurry.

Sadly, I think even a crowd funded team would struggle to keep up with demands and criticisms. Great idea in principle Ron, but I'm pretty sure the "human factor" would kill it in no time.

Cheers

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:51 pm 
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After the unpleasantness N3V's Kickstarter created, I will have nothing to do with any form of Crowdfunding and Trainz the target audience is far too volatile. Besides as soon as you get involved in "payments" it ceases to be a hobby, becomes a business which invariably involves dealing with complaints, criticism and eventually becomes a chore, probably the main reason why quite a few payware creators pack it in.


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:38 pm 
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We Germans gather donations to make existing payware stuff free,including these nice carriages originally from TrainzPremiumRoutes https://www.trainzdepot.net/download/in ... -ten-v0-2/ or the BR232_lok on the DLS.

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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:40 pm 
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While a noble idea, if I was contributing to a crowdfunded commission, I'd not be too happy about everyone then getting it for nothing on the DLS.

I think Dave (apologies if I'm wrong) has misunderstood the idea of your post. As I read it, I take it you mean a group of individuals all wanting the same piece of content, contributing into the fund to pay the content creator?

The issue I see with that is that firstly, you need to get the price from the content creator otherwise you don't know how much is required to be raised. Secondly, you also need a willing creator who is capable of producing payware standard content. If you got that, I'd say the resulting content would be available for free to those who provided initial funding (as most crowdfunders have a 'perk') and made available publicly as payware.

Personally, I'm happy to pay for content and do so for the Other Sim. I also bought the Railwaves content for Trainz. So far, there has been nothing else in payware that suits my taste.

Innis

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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm 
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trainzrule wrote:
We Germans gather donations to make existing payware stuff free,including these nice carriages originally from TrainzPremiumRoutes https://www.trainzdepot.net/download/in ... -ten-v0-2/ or the BR232_lok on the DLS.


Do you mean buying the rights to the payware from the author?

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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 pm 
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I think Trainzrule said it better than me, by calling it a "donation" rather than a commission.

Multiple people would "donate" with the intent of having this creator model a piece of stock the donaters want. When donating to a preserved loco or railway, you do not shut out other enthusiasts that didn't donate here, saying "he didn't donate, he isn't allowed on this railway".

But what are you going to lose by allowing the author to make the content freeware? You would not gain anything if it was payware either, unless you get a cut of the profits for research etc..

I find myself feeling different about a "commission" vs a "donation". Frequently we see on freeware 3rd party content sites, "donate to see more content in the future" or along those lines. A creator interested in the project, suppose a much needed new Class 20, would want to make the loco, but not have the time nor resources needed. With a hearty donation we are telling the creator, "I want to see this loco in Trainz. Take this money and give yourself the time and resources needed to carry on with this project." But somewhere it would have to be asked and confirmed the donation amount needed to fully cover the project.

Innis I am talking about experienced and proven content creators, as rare as that seems nowadays with all the updating and fixing required. Content creation for the next version is going to be far more difficult and I think we will lose even more creators there. There are too many dangers involved with blindly throwing your money at someone rather than approaching a skilled creator. A PM or few back and forth with the creator should hopefully get you a quote for roughly how much it would cost.

Speaking of which, Trainzrule, how much did it cost to make the payware coaches free? I would think, somewhere equivalent of 500 - 1000 pounds?

Regards
Ron


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:22 pm 
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evertrainz wrote:
Multiple people would "donate" with the intent of having this creator model a piece of stock the donaters want. When donating to a preserved loco or railway, you do not shut out other enthusiasts that didn't donate here, saying "he didn't donate, he isn't allowed on this railway".

I understand what you're trying to say and you're correct in the fact that enthusiasts aren't denied access to a railway on the basis that they don't donate to a loco at that railway, but they still have to buy a ticket to get in.
evertrainz wrote:
But what are you going to lose by allowing the author to make the content freeware? You would not gain anything if it was payware either, unless you get a cut of the profits for research etc..

I'm not going to pass a bundle of beer quids to a content creator only for everyone else to benefit without contributing. I have bought dozens of freeware items for Trainz and The Other Sim and don't expect to see any cut. None of these items have been made legitimately available as freeware, nor would I expect them to be.

I'm not saying it can't be done and I'd certainly like to see such an idea work, it's just that there are a myriad of risks to be considered.

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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:04 am 
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What worries me the most is, with N3V continually raising the bar for content creators, are we going to get held to ransom for new stuff soon one way or another anyway? It is already impossible for some of us older folk to understand the finer arts of creation but N3V seem to be pushing the boundaries even further at every opportunity to the point where soon only serious, professionally trained programmers/creators will have any kind of understanding of what's required. I've only just got my head round basic alpha channels, never mind shadows and LOD's and god knows what else, so what choice would someone like me have in the future besides paying?

I will watch future developments with great interest but the moment that I feel like I'm being primed as a cash cow will be the moment that I decide, "enough's enough."

I hope that day never comes but...

Cheers

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:25 am 
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PFX wrote:
I'm not going to pass a bundle of beer quids to a content creator only for everyone else to benefit without contributing. I have bought dozens of freeware items for Trainz and The Other Sim and don't expect to see any cut. None of these items have been made legitimately available as freeware, nor would I expect them to be.

I'm not saying it can't be done and I'd certainly like to see such an idea work, it's just that there are a myriad of risks to be considered.


I see your concern but if you take the "moochers" out of the question for a moment, it is technically only you (all) paying money to the creator to make some content you want. The creator gets the rights to the asset. I think the price is generally higher if the donating group gets to determine the fate of the model i.e. freeware, payware, vaporware ( :( ) etc..

cyberdonblue wrote:
I will watch future developments with great interest but the moment that I feel like I'm being primed as a cash cow will be the moment that I decide, "enough's enough."


This is where it gets tricky drawing the lines between hobby and business, but my view is that if you want to create the content to the standards set by N3V, go for it. If not, do as you wish. I don't understand what you mean by a ransom?

Back on the topic of commissions, I am attempting to reach out to Legomanbiffo who does private recording sessions with preserved locos, with HQ audio equipment. He does very nice sound chips with these. A Google up of his name should give you a good view of the scope of his work. But I am not too happy with the existing Trainz Class 44/45/46 Peak enginesounds, so I am going to attempt to "commission" sounds from Legoman. As in, I will hopefully be able to pay him a hearty sum of money, and he will allow me to modify, use, and release for freeware these HD enginesounds. If I had said to him that I wanted to buy the sounds for personal use, no release, he may have let me off with a much lower price. But since I want to own the rights to the modified (for Trainz) versions of his .wav files, releasing them for all (moochers included) to use, it will possibly end up being much more costly.

I could simply take the cheaper route and hold the enginesounds to myself, but when I lose interest in Trainz (never?) or my hard drive crashes, it will essentially become vaporware. And nobody else would have had a chance to enjoy the sounds. A waste of effort and money in my opinion. More so the case with 3D models and textures that would realistically take 50+ hours of work to finish.

Regards
Ron


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:06 pm 
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May need to consider Taxation implications, remembering that online businesses no matter how small must now register for VAT and Tax even if they don't need to pay it. Donations made on line may well be Taxable income unless made to a registered charity, I wouldn't like to guess how many "Donation" sites actually declare it but I wouldn't risk not doing so and landing yourself a large bill some time in the future.
Crowd Funding is mostly Taxable as well. Only thing that isn't is a gift.


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:22 pm 
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I only know the loco (BR232_lok) was 200 quid. (in euros :lol: )
If anyone would like to download it, it somehow doesn't show up on the content manager. BUT you can download the loco as an FTP-download via the dls-website and then download the dependencies via content manager. Or you create a consist that includes <KUID:293699:1023252731> and click "download dependencies". I strongly recommend both the loco and the cars! (wonderful interiors)
I'm sorry to say I was one of the "moochers", but, in defense, I'm still under 18. :lol:
A good idea might be buying the rights for all the railwaves stuff, maybe updatinng it and sending it to the DLS...

cheers, trainzrule

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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:30 pm 
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evertrainz wrote:
Recently on the N3V forums there has been discussion around commissioned work and appropriate prices.

The best way to go about this in my opinion is to group-fund a commission from a talented/established content creator. It is only going to get more difficult to create content from here on out and I think crowdfunding would be best, since everyone gets a slice of the finished product, and releasing it for free on the DLS would avoid any legal trouble with copyright of the scripts used etc..

Look at Ocemy's spectacular Deltic cab for TANE, and imagine if he ended up doing a whole new Deltic model with that attention to detail. It would be expensive to commission for a single person, but manageable if many people contribute to the price. The problem is, I don't know many creators that would willingly commission such work and actually care about the quality/accuracy.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Ron


This sounds right up my alley, it's how I've created some stuff for the other-sim. I don't currently have the time to do such a thing. However It's something I'd look at doing in the future.

To be honest I'm working to pursue a career in 3D design, so I reckon this would be an excellent way to create a portfolio, paid commissions adds a certain level of employment gravitas to portfolios. My concerns would be if I could achieve the expectations set by crowdfunding, you can get some pretty lofty expectations and god forbid if you don't meet them. In short I'm not sure if I'm good enough yet, perhaps in 6 months or so.

I'd suggest perhaps expand crowd-funding out to entire route projects rather than specific trains, in a bid to coordinate with content creators with a range of talents IE, someone to create the route, someone working on buildings, someone else on rollingstock etc.

Excellent idea and don't lose heart, these kinds of things can and do work in many areas, from web design to media projects, so I can't see why it can't be made to work in trainz with the right combination of determination and patience. Anyway I'd like to register my interest and don't be surprised if in a few months you get a message from me saying I'd like to be a part of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:35 pm 
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clam1952 wrote:
May need to consider Taxation implications... ...Only thing that isn't is a gift.

I'm not 100% sure, Malc, but I think a monetary gift of up to £2,000 is tax free; above that it's taxable at the usual rates. That's how it used to be anyway. Many people have fallen foul of the law in the past when they've won large amounts on the lottery and wanted to look after family and friends. They suddenly found out that there's a whole raft of laws to prevent you just giving money to people unless you pay a hefty tax bill too. All designed to curb fraudulent business activities I suppose.

Cheers

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Crowdfunding Commissioned Stock
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:58 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts

You can give away £3,000 worth of gifts each tax year (6 April to 5 April)
without them being added to the value of your estate.
This is known as your ‘annual exemption’

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