Guards

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klambert
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Guards

Post by klambert »

Whilst making the guards van for my VEP, I realised it looked rather vacant without its intended occupant. If I was any good at character modelling I'd create a one. Generally guards operations within all train sims are overlooked, pretty poor considering how vital guards are for the operation of the railway (TSGN disagrees).

I came across the idea of making a guard figure that works a bit like the drivers in trainz. The guard would be specified to attach to an a.guard attachment point. This attachment point would obviously be put in a brake coach, brake van or the second-mans seat on modern units.

However when running a train with more than one brake coaches or having more than one modern units coupled together, the guard would default to the rear-most a.guard attachment point. I'm aware in real life the guard wouldn't always occupy the rear-most brake coach of a train, however I've done this to make to make the scripting simpler, as far as I know common practice on modern units is for the guard to occupy the cab at the end of the train, the same applies for running with more than one freight brake vans.

I also think it should be possible, in case the user may wish to replicate shunt moves or the dreaded DOO. To be able to switch the guard off and on within the trains settings.

As far as I know many of the BR brake vans in the game already work like this, but they require their own specific coding, whereas I'm proposing a more universal system applied across trainz that can be easily implemented, by simply adding an attachment point, much like the driver figures.

To extend my idea further perhaps have a guard that stands on the platform whilst passengers are loading. This could be implemented by adding two attachment points maybe a few feet outside of the guards door either side of the brake coach, called something like a.guardplatrh and a.guardplatlh. These attachment points would then be activated as soon as the passengers start loading and which side they load from.

If possible it'd be nice a few seconds before the passenger loading animation finishes, if the guard could be animated to wave his flag, or at least hold it up, followed by a two second delay and then a buzzer or bellcode for right away. (Speaking of which, has anyone modelled any RA indicators?).

Depending on the reception my idea receives on here, I'm tempted to stick it up on the main forum to see if it gains any traction.
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Re: Guards

Post by blackwatch13 »

Would certainly be a nice addition to realism, but will need someone with good creation skills.
If it can be done, would it be possible to also make it work on current rolling stock, or would it
need to be added when rolling stock is is created?
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Re: Guards

Post by cyberdonblue »

Sounds like a great idea Karl but it also sounds like a technical nightmare (but then again painting by numbers is a technical nightmare for someone like me.) If it could be done though, it would be very impressive.

The positioning of Guards on modern stock with multiple working in action is a bit of a headache too. On the old DMU's the Guard would simply occupy the rearmost brake compartment, the same as he would with multiple BG's in a train formation. On modern stock, where two Units are attached, the Guard should be situated in the leading cab of the SECOND Unit. This then moves to the leading cab of the third Unit for 3 Units and 4 Units too, I believe. The idea being to keep the Guard in a location that allows him to see most, if not all, of the train in a curved platform location. Other than empty stock workings (and one Football Special from Wolverhampton to Leicester once upon a dark evening time with 5 156's) - I have little experience of more than 2 modern Units in multiple so maybe somebody who has could tell you more.

I would put your idea out there on the main forum, if I were you, but I doubt there would be too much interest from across the pond as they're more interested in 300 mile long freight trains with 17 engines in the pack. Good luck with it anyway Karl, whatever you decide to do.

Cheers

Dave
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Re: Guards

Post by klambert »

blackwatch13 wrote:Would certainly be a nice addition to realism, but will need someone with good creation skills.
If it can be done, would it be possible to also make it work on current rolling stock, or would it
need to be added when rolling stock is is created?
Only with a small with a small modification to current stock using PEVsofts attachment maker or in gmax they simply add the a.guard, a.lhplatguard and a.rhplatguard attachment points and it should work.
cyberdonblue wrote:Sounds like a great idea Karl but it also sounds like a technical nightmare (but then again painting by numbers is a technical nightmare for someone like me.) If it could be done though, it would be very impressive.

The positioning of Guards on modern stock with multiple working in action is a bit of a headache too. On the old DMU's the Guard would simply occupy the rearmost brake compartment, the same as he would with multiple BG's in a train formation. On modern stock, where two Units are attached, the Guard should be situated in the leading cab of the SECOND Unit. This then moves to the leading cab of the third Unit for 3 Units and 4 Units too, I believe. The idea being to keep the Guard in a location that allows him to see most, if not all, of the train in a curved platform location. Other than empty stock workings (and one Football Special from Wolverhampton to Leicester once upon a dark evening time with 5 156's) - I have little experience of more than 2 modern Units in multiple so maybe somebody who has could tell you more.

I would put your idea out there on the main forum, if I were you, but I doubt there would be too much interest from across the pond as they're more interested in 300 mile long freight trains with 17 engines in the pack. Good luck with it anyway Karl, whatever you decide to do.

Cheers

Dave
Thanks for the info Dave, I'll have to observe what the guards do on the 12 coach trains in my part of country, although I think they do exactly as you've described. I'm sure that wouldn't be impossible to code, just gotta invent a simple mathematical formula for that. Another problem with having guard right at the back of the train is what happens if the train is longer than the platform, when he steps outside he'll be levitating about 3ft in the air.
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Re: Guards

Post by PFX »

One item I picked up on is the suggestion of a RA or On/Off indicator. I'm maybe simplifying things in my minds but would a type of repeater cover this visually, if not prototypically?

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Re: Guards

Post by greeni »

As for scripting could it not be added to the door animations script (what ever they use) to select the side guard ends up on.
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Re: Guards

Post by Nexusdj »

A RA (Right Away) indicator would have to know when a train had completed its duties at the platform before illuminating , Not sure if a script could be devised that works with all situations ?
Plus you'd need to have to build in some sort of delay that holds a train for a couple of seconds after it becomes illuminated or else it would all happen at once and not look very realistic .

An OFF indicator on the other hand could quite easily work using the existing built-in signalling script as it would just require a "Repeater 1" tag in its config file .
Last edited by Nexusdj on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guards

Post by klambert »

When I mentioned RA, I was more thinking of a non functioning one really. The guard system I proposed wouldn't have too much to do with it as I imagine coding completely realistic platform operations would be nigh on impossible.
greeni wrote:As for scripting could it not be added to the door animations script (what ever they use) to select the side guard ends up on.
That's what I was thinking.

Alternatively add a guard attachment point to the interactive passenger loading platform, so he appears on the platform only when the passengers are loading, that solves the issue of a train being longer than the platform and the guard appearing to float. Although of course the guard wouldn't always line up next to the guards door on the train.
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Re: Guards

Post by davidbird »

klambert wrote:...
(Speaking of which, has anyone modelled any RA indicators?).
PFX wrote:One item I picked up on is the suggestion of a RA or On/Off indicator. I'm maybe simplifying things in my minds but would a type of repeater cover this visually, if not prototypically?
Innis
Nexusdj wrote:...
An OFF indicator on the other hand could quite easily work using the existing built-in signalling script as it would just require a "Repeater 1" tag in its config file .
Funny you should mention this... ;-)
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Re: Guards

Post by TheGamingBloke »

Try make an invisible marker that you place on the track that the train runs over and stops on, somewhere between the 2 or 3 car stop markers, and it can check wether the train is able to move or not due to loading goods at an industry, and when the loading process stops, the marker now sees this and makes the RA indicator light up!

There are problems to this, like only can be used at an industry, and finding a way to connect the marker and indicator together (I’m thinking about the PLL signalbox where they connect via distinct naming or matching # digit codes)

I’m not sure how accurate signals are in Trainz, but I hope it doesn’t affect actual line signals if the RA indicator is a track placement itself, much less a signal!

If you want to replicate Close Doors, try make a sequence that the time when the train controls are disabled, are enabled it can display CD and after RA after

Just a suggestion
A very long suggestion :lol: (this needs to be a separate topic)
Woah, this text is really big!

Hey, this text is really small! :lol:
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Re: Guards

Post by PerRock »

For the scripting aspect, some of Jointed Rail's cars have a script that can detect if the car is the last car & makes an End Of Train Device show up. I don't see why you couldn't just make it show a guard mesh instead & move the attachment point... Probably want to talk to the JR guys 1st before releasing something that includes their script, but if you're making good stuff, they're usually pretty cool about it.

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Re: Guards

Post by pacerguy »

Sounds good but i would also like to see the onboard catering cleaning staff etc
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