TRS19

General Trainz discussion and questions.
clam1952
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Re: TRS19

Post by clam1952 »

Tuning engine specs is something of a black art, it usually takes me a couple of weeks to do my NG steam ones to the best of my ability so they work with some degree of possible realism.... maybe. Afraid I don't have much interest in Diesel or Electric other than like the steamers most of the especs are ancient with probably a quick bodge here and there to get them through the ever advancing error detection when new tags / features have been added so they keep working albeit probably incorrectly.

What's needed is the actual specs for hp braking deceleration, acceleration and such (Google might help) and a simple way of getting them int into an espec rather than messing with over complicated out of date to current standards spread sheets.

Example specs for class 37 here http://c37lg.co.uk/37data.aspx

Also need an up to date wiki page. When you go to the Wiki and search for engine spec you are confronted by two locked under construction pages that haven't been touched since 2013! Likewise the "how to tune a Steam Engine Spec Page is also from
2013, need I say more?
Cheers

Malc

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thilliam
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Re: TRS19

Post by thilliam »

Wow - that's a lot to respond to :)

In no particular order:

1.
Locked pages on the wiki - a quick check indicates that Farbartus created one of the "locled" pages. The wiki is a living "document" that is editable by the community. We update lots of stuff, others update various pages. The theory is that this way, more information becomes available. The downside is that people come and go and Farbartus has long gone.

The pages you want to check out (including pages updated today) are:

http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/inde ... :Main_Menu#
http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/inde ... EngineSpec
http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/inde ... EngineSpec
http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/inde ... IND_Engine

2.
"The UK class 43 / HST engine spec has been attempted by so many different users - but we simply cannot replicate a realistic class 43 spec because the loco(s) start to unrealistically wheel slip even at low speed. In real life, the HST / Class 43 accelerates very quickly and can hit notch 4/5/6 very early on. In Trainz, if you go above notch 2, or fart in your seat, it causes the HST to wheel slip. It also takes an age to hit a fast speed. I once started accelerating in the HST, left Trainz running while I went on a weeks holiday to Cyprus, and when I came back, my HST had just managed to hit 40mph. "

I'm not sure which Class 43 or which engine spec you are using but in testing today I spotted that the default enginepsec (<kuid:-25:136> Class 43) is poorly configured.

This enginespec has 32 notches and only 8 throttle notch power segments, so you need to notch up 4 times to get to notch 1 to begin with :(

From there, the maximum power at "notch 1" is 10 kN. This means it crawls to 10MPH over a few minutes.

I also found the following asset has 5 throttle notches (but only 5 throttle containers so tha's ok), and generates only 8 kN power until it reaches 15m/s in Notch 1.
username "BR Class 43 HST Engine Spec-TRS2009"
kuid <kuid:368699:50001>

I wasn't able to repro your wheelslip but no doubt there is soemthing wrong in the configuration applying to much power, causing the slip. Take a look at it in Test Track and you'll see the power curves and may be able to work out why that is happening. (It could also be to do with the rolling stock used as it is a combination of power and train weight that affects the wheelslip).

3. "What's needed is the actual specs for hp braking deceleration, acceleration and such"
>
This is our "Basic" editing option in Test Track that has been designed but not yet implemented.

4. "So these posts appear to suggest that we're all singing from the same hymn sheet. Whilst Trainz engine specs may be highly configurable, none of us have a scooby doo on what we're actually doing with them."
>>
Short answer is "increase power to increase acceleration at any given notch at any given speed" and "decrease power to avoid wheelslip".

5. "However, in spite of the number of times I've fiddled with the dials and knobs in T:ANE I cannot reproduce normal northern hemisphere lighting anything like we experience here in the UK. "
I think my example illustrated that it is a two minute job to create a cloudly day with no shadows. The current issue is that you cannot achieve these results solely in Driver, so right now it requires that you set up the environment settings as you prefer them in Surveyor. If you are saying that even these settings do not give the correct look and feel, then please provide a photo of what you are trying to achieve. Also, please check this tutorial https://n3vgames.typeform.com/to/y4J2Rl

6. "I have been seriously underwhelmed by what I have seen content wise so far"
We have only released 1/6th of the content so far, or are you referring to the images of the 6 routes shown here? http://trs19.trainzportal.com/#builtin_content

7. It's up to you now, Tony, to clarify what these subscriptions etc are all about and just what we will lose if we don't sign up - or gain if we do.
This page sums it up: http://www.trainzportal.com/pages/gold- ... rly-access

Hopefully that addresses a number of your concerns.

What might be better than me trying to keep tabs on things is for you to send a a SHORT list of questions/issues to our feedback email directed to attention Tony and I'll get back to you.

I'll close by saying that there is a simple explanation for our responses to a variety of issues raised - we're a small team, with a big job ahead of us. We work hard, we do the best we can, but if you've ever worn half a dozen different hats, you tend to do an ok job at most of them without excelling at one. Each train fan has high expectations, and we know that we can never reach all those expectations. So we aim as high as we can, and try to get there.

With our Kickstarter experince behind us, we aimed lower this time around and reached much higher. While some may say TRS19 is a glossy version of TANE, they could also say it is a very different beast from TS12 (or Trainz 1 for that matter). With the support of our community, we can acheive much more than we can without them.
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cyberdonblue
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Re: TRS19

Post by cyberdonblue »

Thank you for responding at length, Tony. However:
thilliam wrote:...We have only released 1/6th of the content so far...
If that is the case then it is not something that you have made well known - certainly not in this neck of the woods anyway. I think it would have been to your distinct advantage to have done so.

On the subject of train physics, could I respectfully suggest that you scrap the lot and start again. We have some extremely clever members on this side of the pond but even they appear to be struggling with your Einsteinesque formulae when it comes to engine specs. If the whole idea is to promote realism then I think you seriously need to look at the subject of wheelslip. Trainz is plagued by this unreal difficulty and if life on the railways had ever been so hard I think the iron road would have been tarmacked over decades ago.

Wheelslip rarely ever occurs in dry weather conditions - especially with the trains of today - unless you have a contaminated railhead, and even then the wheelslip would be short-lived. The driver of a train is limited to how much power he can take by having to stay with the constraints of his loco's acceleration capabilities (that's why we were given ammeters, tap counters etc. in very prominent positions.) When driving a train (back in my day, anyway,) you would have to keep one eye on your ammeter and keep the other one flipping between the outside world and your speedo. If you were to slam the thing wide open you would get a massive surge of power, a loud bang and then silence because all of the overload protection gear would have kicked in - both electrical and mechanical. At NO time would you experience wheelslip. Acceleration is an art when driving a train. You want to reach your maximum permitted speed as quick as you can, but safely. It's like pouring oil into a bottle using a funnel. Sometimes you have to wait for the level in the funnel to drop before adding more oil. Likewise with a train. You watch that ammeter and wait for it to drop before adding more power.

Wheelslip is a nuiscance for all trains in light rain and drizzle (I've had wheelslip at 110mph on a Euston to Birmingham express in light rain.) Fully wet conditions tend to briefly hamper acceleration from a standing start but once on the move, and power is added sensibly with regard to the conditions, then rarely is their any major impact on the train's progress. Not so in Trainz. Maybe you should remove this element until such time as you can master it.
thilliam wrote:...I'll close by saying that there is a simple explanation for our responses to a variety of issues raised - we're a small team, with a big job ahead of us. We work hard, we do the best we can, but if you've ever worn half a dozen different hats, you tend to do an ok job at most of them without excelling at one. Each train fan has high expectations, and we know that we can never reach all those expectations. So we aim as high as we can, and try to get there.
There's a very derogatory old saying, "Jack of all trades, Master of none," which I would hate to see levelled at you. Despite my criticisms, I am a lover of Trainz but there are times where I feel - like many others, I'm sure - that you meander off into something that really should go to the bottom of your wish list while you attend to some of the more in demand stuff at the top. Maybe you could listen to the community a little more before casting aside some of the more realistic suggestions.
thilliam wrote:With our Kickstarter experince behind us, we aimed lower this time around and reached much higher. While some may say TRS19 is a glossy version of TANE, they could also say it is a very different beast from TS12 (or Trainz 1 for that matter). With the support of our community, we can acheive much more than we can without them.
I think you have to admit, Tony, that the T:ANE launch was something of a major disaster that made any hope of another successful kickstarter appeal in the near future all but impossible. However, we have stayed loyal to T:ANE - despite our vicious criticisms at times - and we have seen it through to its most stable condition yet. Having seen a few reviews now on YouTube, I can't help feeling that your Trainz 2019 is actually T:ANE SP4. In fact, I have already heard the comment that Trainz 2019 is what T:ANE SHOULD HAVE BEEN. It always feels like you are in a rush to move on before you actually finish a product. If your company is so small and so limited doesn't it make sense to finish a project (T:ANE) first instead of dividing your resources still further?

I will, however, do you the courtesy of waiting until you release the other 5/6 of the new product before giving my final personal judgement. I have followed Trainz on its long journey virtually since day one (though I had less time to mess with it back then because I was still driving the real thing.) Route building has always been my fascination and I have happily welcomed all of the improvements. Now, for the first time ever, I'm asking myself: Is it really worth that much money? Sadly, right now the answer is No.

Cheers

Dave
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Briggsy
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Re: TRS19

Post by Briggsy »

thilliam wrote:Each train fan has high expectations, and we know that we can never reach all those expectations. So we aim as high as we can, and try to get there.
With respect, some expectations are nothing more than what people expect for their money - just a fully working product.

TS12 still had a few glitches when T:ANE was released.

T:ANE is now three years old - yet still has some glitches.

TRS19 is now out - and by your own admission, you're a small team, so that means you've now got two products to support instead of one with a small team - and I highly suspect that T:ANE will never ever be bug-free, just like TS12 wasn't.

Why can't N3V actually complete a product before releasing on a new one?

I'm highly confident that if you paid full price for a car, but the manufacturer came along and said "well it only goes up to 60 miles per hour at the moment because there's a bug - but don't worry, when we've patched it in three years time, you'll be able to drive up to 100 miles per hour", you'd go back into the showroom, kick up a fuss, and demand a refund - but with your products, it seems to be acceptable to release a buggy product and never actually finish it.

Whenever I fire up T:ANE now, I'm greeted with floating tunnels on some routes. A problem that has only started with T:ANE. And yes, I know it can be fixed manually, but these things should work "out of the box".
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Briggsy
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Re: TRS19

Post by Briggsy »

cyberdonblue wrote:Wheelslip is a nuiscance for all trains in light rain and drizzle (I've had wheelslip at 110mph on a Euston to Birmingham express in light rain.)
Wheelslipping at 110mph?

Whacking on the brakes entering a platform at 60mph?

Can't get the staff these days. I think I've been on a few of your trains. Now I know who to send that compo claim to for all those banged heads / concussion I suffered with and the hot tea spill that made my meat and two veg soggy in the buffet car :P
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cyberdonblue
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Re: TRS19

Post by cyberdonblue »

Aah but we only ever did it when we heard YOU were travelling Briggsy :lol: (And the old DMU's were absolutely fantastic for stopping on a sixpence ...er that's two and a half pence to you young whippersnappers :lol: )

Cheers ;)

Dave
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Re: TRS19

Post by Nexusdj »

Class 66's just as bad ...
Class 4 long and heavy liner and I've got it running at 73 mph with the throttle open and it goes into wheel-slip due to contaminated rails , speedo takes off then the over speed device kicks in and dumps the lot . Brakes hard on and now the loco does a Torvil and Dean impression (For the young-uns on here they where famous ice skaters) , only thing slowing me down is the brakes on the liner wagons , With the cab filling up with that unmistakable aroma of hot metal and burning leaves !
I've had it happen more than once and its happened to quite a few other drivers as well , Some of whom got dragged in the office on claims of speeding after the Q tron was downloaded !! Ended with much heated conversations between inspectors and drivers , with the office dwellers telling us to take it easy with the power handle at higher speeds which is not exactly practicable when you've got a 1000+ tons of modals on and the bobby / control are expecting you not to dawdle !
High visibility pixels must be worn when on or about the line !!
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Re: TRS19

Post by electra »

Nexusdj wrote:Railworks is going to have a 64 bit version released this year , that "will" have an effect on Trainz especially at the prices N3V have been quoting , 3 years hard work is no excuse for pricing yourself out of the market .... DTG will be laughing all the way to the bank !
Peek-a-boo! Yes, I'm still knocking around - even if I'm doing it solo these days (those unfortunate enough to have me as a friend on Faceache will know why)!

DTG's 64-bit upgrade has more, I suspect, to do with the lack of large scale take up of TSW - which is mainly down to the lack of editing tools and access for 3rd party content creators, along with the perception amongst PC users that DTG have thrown their lot in with the console users, at the expense of any decent length routes in the PC version.

From where I'm standing (and I might be wrong), it appears that N3V haven't really pushed the fact that T:ANE is (currently) the only 64-bit sim and if they're not careful, could stand to lose out, when TS2019 is released - whenever that is.
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Re: TRS19

Post by VernM »

Sorry guys, I just folded...

Well having just bought the wife a new iPad she asked if there was anything I wanted... :shock: :shock:

After certain suggestions were, ahem, declined I suggested TRS2019 which was agreed!

So I will report back in due course as to how I find it and whether really worth £55.
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Re: TRS19

Post by electra »

VernM wrote:Sorry guys, I just folded...

Well having just bought the wife a new iPad she asked if there was anything I wanted... :shock: :shock:

After certain suggestions were, ahem, declined I suggested TRS2019 which was agreed!

So I will report back in due course as to how I find it and whether really worth £55.
I've no wife to stop me, now, but I'm going to sit on the cash and see how TRS19 pans out - before committing to it.
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Re: TRS19

Post by VernM »

First impressions are mixed, though this is only based on the install/setup and a bit of time in Surveyor, not done much driving.

Well the executable is a 7.6Gb file which means WinZip chokes on it so you will need to use 7Zip or similar to extract the installer.

Install and setup almost identical to TANE. Note, if you change the location where your local files are stored as with TANE this resets all the user settings back to default, so you need to enter your Trainz log in, graphics settings, number of daily backups etc. again.

The interface is... different and seems to be influenced by the DTG menus to some extent. I do like the fact there is a visual indication that installed routes have missing assets or errors. Not so impressed that some of the DLC automatically downloaded was showing missing assets.

Content Manager - same interface as TANE. Note the old bug of not downloading sub-dependencies seems to be back. On installing my Highland Link and Water Of Coate routes I had to relist the dependencies and force a second download run to get them to acquire. Incidentally, trying to multi-task within TRS19 while downloading not a good idea. I was trying to load up a route for a quickdrive while the DLC and some DLS items were downloading, fans howling like a banshee and CPU/GPU temps spiking. The route never loaded. Had the same issue once in Surveyor and Alt-Tabbed out to grab some items.

Surveyor, h'mmm. Luckily once downloading had ceased fans and temperatures returned to normal. Movement is a bit more sluggish than in TANE but I accept on the laptop I'm probably going to have to kill the settings a bit more. Starting with a 50 mile 14 board wide Transdem route probably not the best first attempt either. Functionality is pretty much the same as before but there are a few issues with textures and terrain, some of which may have been present in TANE:

After a certain time editing, terrain changes or texture painting does not render on screen. After saving the route they then appeared but only a few minutes later the problem repeated.
Smoothing terrain around track splines seems to be leaving rough edges or gaps, not so fine as before - hard to describe.
Certain terrain textures are now showing a gloss sheen in certain angles, notably Malc's textures and some of the Ultra set - bit of a bummer as these are some of the best textures with which to decorate a route. Some of Mason Taylor's textures unfortunately still pant with the checkerboard effect as encountered in TANE.

I'm about to install on the main PC and see how things look from the driving perspective but at the moment my first impression is definitely TANE+ or TANE 2 but we'll see how it goes.
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Re: TRS19

Post by VernM »

Update:

The texture oddities seem to be more widespread. I've also noticed on a very hilly route a massive contrast in the same colour applied one side of a hill, to the other. This makes it quite difficult to mix a blend of textures and get an idea of the actual median effect. Seems to be a function of the (new) lighting system but finding a setting that minimises the contrast between sunlight and shade or steepness of the terrain so far eludes me.
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Re: TRS19

Post by clam1952 »

Environmental controls Vern, turn the sun down to grey darker than ambient for starters.

https://imageshack.com/a/img921/6066/xict95.jpg

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3718/k7P4cr.jpg
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Re: TRS19

Post by thilliam »

Hi Vern. I've taken a look at some of the issues you posted. Here are the results to date:

Not so impressed that some of the DLC automatically downloaded was showing missing assets.
>>
Usually this is either:
- the db updating while people are checking CM - just wait and it is resolved.
- an incomplete download (see; http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/inde ... ownloading)

Note the old bug of not downloading sub-dependencies seems to be back
>> I downloaded Highland Link and it downloaded all the dependencies it could. There were a bunch of geophil items listed as unknown. I can see that <kuid:126773:21008> TransDEM20 08 is a TANE builtin item. If you had installed the TANE Warwick DLC route first, this problem wouldn't have happened. So not much we can do about those other than provide the content for people to install

Incidentally, trying to multi-task within TRS19 while downloading not a good idea.
>> Route loading is CPU intensive and Content Manager downloading/installing is CPU intensive. We de-prioritise updating content listings while loading a route (i.e. your route loading is given preference over updating CM), but if you're asking your computer to do a lot, then be prepared to wait.
That said, i did spot this task which is still open, but does not have a solid repro case: "Downloading while loading route can result in deadlock". So it looks like you have hit on the same problem. I will get QA to try and repro.

Certain terrain textures are now showing a gloss sheen in certain angles
>> Legacy materials have legacy shaders. Try out the PBR textures. Ensure you don't mix and match old and new - you need to go the whole hog to avoid some very strange artifacts from the parallax textures.

TANE+ or TANE2...
>> Well, it's certainly not Flight Simulator 2019 :)

All I can tell you is that our business plan is to release the best version of Trainz that we can for 2018, and keep on improving upon it beyond that. We can't release something that has 100% new content this year. We can't wait until 2025 to release something with 100% new content. So, that's why Plan A is release the best version of Trainz that we can for 2018.

Cheers :)
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Re: TRS19

Post by VernM »

It's all good Tony, just picked up on the official forum how to tone down the "HDR" style lighting. Just might be worth considering making that the default when the programme starts. As it is, think I will be going back over some of my old routes with a makeover using some of the new features.
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