TRS19

General Trainz discussion and questions.
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RedDragon
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Re: TRS19

Post by RedDragon »

Beta tested it and purchased it this morning.

Traditional purchase as 95% of the payware DLC is of no interest to me.

So subscriptions would be a complete waste of money.

Mike.
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Re: TRS19

Post by chrisrose1993 »

PFX wrote:Like Clam, I've been involved in beta testing. but gave up when I discovered the driving experience will remain as it has been for years. TRS19 is all about eye candy so while yes, it does look fantastic, unfortunately the driving experience is as bad as it ever was.
Thanks for that...I shall give it a miss for now then.
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Re: TRS19

Post by Briggsy »

I may have misread and got the wrong end of the stick, but am I right in thinking that those with a lifetime first class ticket for the DLS cannot transfer that over to TRS19?
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Re: TRS19

Post by cyberdonblue »

PFX wrote:...N3V has failed to address what I see as fundamental failings on the driving side to make it a true sim.
As an ex-driver I can honestly say that I find it impossible to reproduce anything like the reality of train driving in Trainz - not that I've ever been that bothered to try for too long. I much prefer building in Surveyor. However, the train physics in Trainz are as far removed from reality as one could get and are laughable to say the least. When working the old Class 501 Units in the real world on the Watford - Euston and/or Broad Street - Richmond DC years ago, you could hit virtually any platform you liked at 40 to 50 mph with a 6 car Unit and stop comfortably at your chosen spot. You'd be lucky to get your simulated train to stop in the next county at that speed in Trainz ha ha ha! I presume everything is based on the huge American freight train physics where you need a month's notice in writing to make any impact whatsoever on your train's speed when at the front of one of those monsters. The weight of those things is one of the reasons why they rarely ever attempt to achieve high speeds of any kind - not because they can't but because they can't stop the buggers once they're travelling at speed! Even in this country, 2000 tons of coal takes some bloody stopping from 75 mph. However, fully fitted trains with regenerative or rheostatic braking are still far better in reality than anything depicted in this Trainz game (and it is a game, certainly NOT a simulator.)

The eye candy seems to be the most important thing as far as Tony is concerned. Everything thing else in on that interminable wishlist.

Cheers

Dave ;)
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Re: TRS19

Post by VernM »

AFAIK Trainz still does not support any form of modern 3 step or Westinghouse braking, so driving a 150 or 158 loses some of the sense of immersion. As you say Dave it is all based on the old* American air brake set and lap. Then not strictly accurate for US freight trains as these do not allow partial release. And vacuum brakes remain a distant dream.

* I say "old" because in Run 8 generally regarded as the foremost simulation of US train physics, the brakes are self lapping you don't need to keep applying then pulling the handle back to the lap position.
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Re: TRS19

Post by thilliam »

Hi guys. I was recently linked this post by one of your members - I have replied to the person who contacted us, and I will leave him to post regarding his other concerns.

In this post I wanted to touch base on one of the other main topics here - train physics.

While true that we don't support vacuum braking, I'm not completely sure I understand all the other issues raised and exactly what it is regardin our physics that you are identifying as a problem..

We have a system which allows the user to pretty much customise the power curve for acceleration and braking to any values the user desires. This means that you can have trains that accelerate slowly, stop quickly, or vice versa, or any combination thereof.

The system revolves around configuration files which determineand how much power or braking force you wish to apply at each throttle setting and how quickly (or slowly) to apply braking forces. Ultimately whether it is vacuum or westinghouse (which is what we model), the time to get up to speed or to slow down for a given train can be tweaked to your hearts content.

As an example re train stopping time:

I downloaded a Class 501 DMS from the DLS (<kuid2:393563:1005:3> BR Class 501 DMBS Blue)

I placed 6 cars onto a Test Track

I got them going along at 67kmh (40MPH)
I applied the train brake and stopped the train in 13 seconds.

Image

I then adjusted the pressure scale from 1 to 2 in the Engine Spec and reran the test. The train now stopped in the same test in 7 seconds.

Just for fun I tweaked that variable to 5 and now my Class 501 stopped from 40MPH to 0 is approx 2 seconds. (so clearly with a single parameter change, Trainz can outperform even "fully fitted trains with regenerative or rheostatic braking" in terms of braking capability when re-configured).

I'm not the technical guy on the team, but I do know that the methods for adjusting physics are there.

So I am wondering why, when the "physics" is totally configurable, that this isn't seen as a major benefit of the Trainz program.

I am happy to work with you guys to see if we can make the necessary adjustments to either the configuration files and/or the underlying code. Working with us to establish new physics configurations you are happy with would surely be something worthsile would it not?
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Re: TRS19

Post by clam1952 »

Briggsy wrote:I may have misread and got the wrong end of the stick, but am I right in thinking that those with a lifetime first class ticket for the DLS cannot transfer that over to TRS19?
Wrong, you get a "lifetime" discount per month year or whatever you have signed up to, or if as I am with the non subscription route nothing changes, my lifetime FCT is alive and well.
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Malc

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RedDragon
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Re: TRS19

Post by RedDragon »

Still no vacuum brakes though Tony, which are essential to any real rail simulator.

Tunnel interiors are still not pitch black, something which your obsession with "eye candy".

Might have been a priority in 2019.

EE Type 3 & 4 loco's still use the old 16 year old cab view interiors.

Unless of course the excellent SRS freeware type 3, is installed.

http://www.srstrainzdlc.com/UK-Contents/

Non UK track used in the updated ECML route.

For a group of people that are supposed to be passionate about your game and railways.

Some of it's aspects are very slip shod.

Mike.
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Re: TRS19

Post by VernM »

Slightly off topic Mike, but those 37's look magnificent, quite like the look of the Sri-Lankan and US stuff too. Will definitely be putting those in my Trainz collection!
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Re: TRS19

Post by Briggsy »

clam1952 wrote:
Briggsy wrote:I may have misread and got the wrong end of the stick, but am I right in thinking that those with a lifetime first class ticket for the DLS cannot transfer that over to TRS19?
Wrong, you get a "lifetime" discount per month year or whatever you have signed up to, or if as I am with the non subscription route nothing changes, my lifetime FCT is alive and well.
Thanks for clarifying :-D
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Re: TRS19

Post by klambert »

thilliam wrote:Hi guys. I was recently linked this post by one of your members - I have replied to the person who contacted us, and I will leave him to post regarding his other concerns.

In this post I wanted to touch base on one of the other main topics here - train physics.

While true that we don't support vacuum braking, I'm not completely sure I understand all the other issues raised and exactly what it is regardin our physics that you are identifying as a problem..

We have a system which allows the user to pretty much customise the power curve for acceleration and braking to any values the user desires. This means that you can have trains that accelerate slowly, stop quickly, or vice versa, or any combination thereof.

The system revolves around configuration files which determineand how much power or braking force you wish to apply at each throttle setting and how quickly (or slowly) to apply braking forces. Ultimately whether it is vacuum or westinghouse (which is what we model), the time to get up to speed or to slow down for a given train can be tweaked to your hearts content.

As an example re train stopping time:

I downloaded a Class 501 DMS from the DLS (<kuid2:393563:1005:3> BR Class 501 DMBS Blue)

I placed 6 cars onto a Test Track

I got them going along at 67kmh (40MPH)
I applied the train brake and stopped the train in 13 seconds.

I then adjusted the pressure scale from 1 to 2 in the Engine Spec and reran the test. The train now stopped in the same test in 7 seconds.

Just for fun I tweaked that variable to 5 and now my Class 501 stopped from 40MPH to 0 is approx 2 seconds. (so clearly with a single parameter change, Trainz can outperform even "fully fitted trains with regenerative or rheostatic braking" in terms of braking capability when re-configured).

I'm not the technical guy on the team, but I do know that the methods for adjusting physics are there.

So I am wondering why, when the "physics" is totally configurable, that this isn't seen as a major benefit of the Trainz program.

I am happy to work with you guys to see if we can make the necessary adjustments to either the configuration files and/or the underlying code. Working with us to establish new physics configurations you are happy with would surely be something worthsile would it not?
Hi Tony,

I've had a bit of a play with the test track and I will admit, it does look rather daunting, I felt like I was a member of the Derby technical team looking at all those graphs, I didn't know where to begin, let alone how to edit the enginespec. My biggest hitch was trying to work out how to switch over from DCC to realistic controls. I'm sure there's some tutorials somewhere but the trainz wiki was no help. To be honest your post was the first introduction I've had to it so we need something explaining the basics of test track.
Image
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Re: TRS19

Post by Briggsy »

thilliam wrote:Working with us to establish new physics configurations you are happy with would surely be something worthsile would it not?
I don't want to speak on behalf of others or start getting into "flaming wars" - but one of the common gripes I've seen on this forum over the years is that a number of posters - some of which are key UK content creators - have mentioned that they've raised things in the past or attempted to "work with" you / N3V - but generally been dismissed and / or shot down.
thilliam wrote:So I am wondering why, when the "physics" is totally configurable, that this isn't seen as a major benefit of the Trainz program.
Again, I can't speak on behalf of others, but from my point of view, I think the Engine Spec area is, like you say, very customisable which is excellent - but it's quite complex and not really understood very well.

There is very little info / documentation available on how to create a realistic engine spec - or how to convert real-life figures into Trainz numbers. There are only a handful of people that have really conquered engine specs for the UK content. The user and member "Stovepipe" is superb when it comes to Engine Specs - and he oftens creates specs for other established creators. It would be nice to have some up-to-date info available so that myself, and others, can also create some good quality engine specs alongside him too. The info and converters I've seen online are for older versions of Trainz and don't appear to work with the newer versions of Trainz.

The UK class 43 / HST engine spec has been attempted by so many different users - but we simply cannot replicate a realistic class 43 spec because the loco(s) start to unrealistically wheel slip even at low speed. In real life, the HST / Class 43 accelerates very quickly and can hit notch 4/5/6 very early on. In Trainz, if you go above notch 2, or fart in your seat, it causes the HST to wheel slip. It also takes an age to hit a fast speed. I once started accelerating in the HST, left Trainz running while I went on a weeks holiday to Cyprus, and when I came back, my HST had just managed to hit 40mph.

I don't want to seem unnecessarily critical - Trainz has some superb things going for it - such as the simplicity to re-skin content, alter config files, etc - and the route building option is simply genius because it's so easy to use and produces superb results, whereas on the "other sim", the chances of me being able to create a route on that are even less than the chances of me taking a trip to the moon. Its unnecessarily complex and long-winded on the "other sim". These are things that are on another level and leave the "other sim" standing in my opinion. However, the "other sim" also has areas that are on another level compared to Trainz - such as the "in cab" experience of realistic accelerating and braking and sounds.

If N3V could conquer the "in cab" experience of Trainz, and actually release a final working version of a product before bringing out a new version, then N3V would get my money again. Until then, sadly, TANE will be the last version I buy (especially as it is still buggy 3 years on from its release).
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Re: TRS19

Post by cyberdonblue »

Hi Tony, Many thanks for paying us a visit and many thanks also for replying to my email. I looked at all of the information that you suggested (yes, from start to finish and scrolling from top to bottom,) but I still can't help feeling that it's all just a nice shiny brochure for a seriously overpriced product - albeit a very nice looking shiny new overpriced product. I would also like to apologise profusely for having used the word "extortionate" as a description in my rather emotive email. A very unfortunate choice of word that stemmed more from anger and frustration than fact.

I have said many times, here and in your feedback facility, that I think this new product LOOKS superb but, like with all new things, the sheen wears off after a while and then people start to have a look at what's really going on under the bonnet. I'm not reading too much at the moment, Tony, that isn't about how good it LOOKS.

Maybe you should look again at your marketing strategy too. Every option I read keeps slapping me in the face with words that resemble a ransom note, "If you stop paying us we'll stop giving you access to anything beneficial!" I was waiting for the bit that said you'd "send the boys round." I think you really need to sit down and clarify with everyone just what these fees are for. Can we just carry on as we are if we don't want to join your "club?" Or are we ostracised and forever stuck with what we've got without hope of ever accessing new free stuff on the DLS? There's a lot of confusion around.
thilliam wrote:So I am wondering why, when the "physics" is totally configurable, that this isn't seen as a major benefit of the Trainz program
I must confess that you have enlightened me somewhat here (and I daresay a few others around here too) with regard to the physics alteration thing but I haven't the least idea what you are actually talking about technically. What goes on within that test track thing with all those graphs is way above and beyond most casual users knowledge base and/or interest - and certainly mine. Trains, not physics, is the appeal for most of us and we want to get stuck into all things railway not the computer science that brings it to our screens. The science is the responsibility of your good self and your team IMHO. Perhaps you are being somewhat too influenced by the very capable creators that you have around you and the most creative users "on our side of the fence", so to speak. Average Joe hasn't got a clue about all that "tweak this, turn that, reduce the other," unless it's a simple 'turn the knob' system that tells him, "This makes it go faster/slower" or "This makes it slow down quicker." If I had any idea about how to do the things that you describe I'd be very interested to give it a go - if only for the entertainment factor.

My own personal experiences of Brake Force and Tractive Force (technically known as Tractive Effort on the UK's railways) was mostly concerned with the size and weight of the train I was being asked to work. Had I got sufficient tractive effort to keep it moving along the the route I was going to be taking and could I stop the bloody thing within the regulation distances? And I had a whole bunch of books to help me decide whether or not I was happy with the figures I was being given by the people around me (Shunters, T.O.P.S and so on; and no they didn't always get it right or tell the truth even, on occasions.) But that was paid, professional work, Tony. Trainz is supposed to be a leisure activity, is it not?

Then we come round to the bugbear that is lighting. Many of us here in the northern hemisphere (and in Europe in particular) have asked for - and fed our opinions back to you on the subject when requested - something to be done about the lighting in Trainz. Something that seems to have been more of a "difficulty since the inception of T:ANE, I feel. Having never visited Australia (not because of any bias or anti Oz feeling, I promise you) I cannot vouch for what normal daylight looks like over there. However, in spite of the number of times I've fiddled with the dials and knobs in T:ANE I cannot reproduce normal northern hemisphere lighting anything like we experience here in the UK. Even with the depiction a dull stormy day there is that blazing desert sun somewhere in the background lighting everything up like a TV studio. I offered my criticism to you and your team via your feed back facility for the new Trainz 19 but was met with the advice that everything was perfectly fine from what they could see - and look we can make a rainy day scene too (a picture which you subsequently posted on the Trainz 2019 news page followed.) Hence the lighting in your new product still has a blazing desert sun bearing down on all of us Poms. Please see the screenshot posted here at the bottom of the page by Pete Richardson http://www.forum.british-trainz.co.uk/v ... =10&t=3689 to see just what I'm talking about and then compare it to the one further up the page posted by andytee67 taken in T:ANE. I know which one I prefer. Andy works hard on bringing us some delightful pictures but not many of us can compete at that level. Should it really be so hard, Tony?

You may think that I'm sat here with the sole intention of destroying people's impressions of Trainz 2019 but nothing could be further from the truth, Tony. There are some very valuable and even poignant posts within this thread that I would hope you have taken the time and trouble to read through. Trainz is important to all of us here, otherwise we wouldn't be here! I was a beta tester for T:ANE. I stood up for T:ANE at times here in these forums when others despaired - and I gave it both barrels each and every time I felt that it deserved it too. Believe it or not, I was really looking forward to this new Trainz edition, Tony. I had high hopes (yet again) that things would be different this time. Better. However, I have been seriously underwhelmed by what I have seen content wise so far and I have been made to feel that Trainz 2019 is little more than a cash cow.

It's up to you now, Tony, to clarify what these subscriptions etc are all about and just what we will lose if we don't sign up - or gain if we do. It would also be nice to witness your presence around here from time time too; if only to acknowledge many of our members who refuse to visit the main forums because of some of the hostility openly expressed over there at times. We are generally a much more sociable bunch round here - but I would say that, wouldn't I?

Thank you for your time anyway. Please don't wait for an ivitation before you return. Over to you.

Cheers

Dave
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Re: TRS19

Post by Briggsy »

PFX wrote:Hi Tony,

I've had a bit of a play with the test track and I will admit, it does look rather daunting, I felt like I was a member of the Derby technical team looking at all those graphs, I didn't know where to begin, let alone how to edit the enginespec. My biggest hitch was trying to work out how to switch over from DCC to realistic controls. I'm sure there's some tutorials somewhere but the trainz wiki was no help. To be honest your post was the first introduction I've had to it so we need something explaining the basics of test track.
Briggsy wrote:Again, I can't speak on behalf of others, but from my point of view, I think the Engine Spec area is, like you say, very customisable which is excellent - but it's quite complex and not really understood very well.

There is very little info / documentation available on how to create a realistic engine spec - or how to convert real-life figures into Trainz numbers. There are only a handful of people that have really conquered engine specs for the UK content. The user and member "Stovepipe" is superb when it comes to Engine Specs - and he oftens creates specs for other established creators. It would be nice to have some up-to-date info available so that myself, and others, can also create some good quality engine specs alongside him too. The info and converters I've seen online are for older versions of Trainz and don't appear to work with the newer versions of Trainz.
cyberdonblue wrote:I must confess that you have enlightened me somewhat here (and I daresay a few others around here too) with regard to the physics alteration thing but I haven't the least idea what you are actually talking about technically. What goes on within that test track thing with all those graphs is way above and beyond most casual users knowledge base and/or interest - and certainly mine.
So these posts appear to suggest that we're all singing from the same hymn sheet. Whilst Trainz engine specs may be highly configurable, none of us have a scooby doo on what we're actually doing with them.

In my opinion, one of several things needs to happen to solve this "in cab" experience so that things are more realistic. Either:

a) N3V need to simplify the engine spec system and introduce a system where Trainz is more realistic "out of the box" like on the "other sim". Most users want something that just works "out of the box" and either don't want to, or don't know how to, configure things themselves before using Trainz. On the "other sim", you can simply install it - and voila - it works out of the box giving a good "in cab" experience.

b) Produce an up-to-date converter so that users can punch in some figures from real-life numbers (Brake force, Tractive Force, Weight, etc) and then the converter gives some details to "cut and paste" into an engine spec file to produce realistic results.

c) Provide a good quality, up-to-date, jargon-free instruction guide on how to create, edit and / or understand engine spec files better.

If I had to choose between amazing graphics or more all-round fine tuning to sounds, in-cab experiences, realism, etc then the latter would win outright. After all, TANE already had good graphics - so TRS19 should have focused more on the refinements in my opinion.
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Re: TRS19

Post by PFX »

thilliam wrote:I am happy to work with you guys to see if we can make the necessary adjustments to either the configuration files and/or the underlying code. Working with us to establish new physics configurations you are happy with would surely be something worthsile would it not?
Hi Tony,

Thanks for the response and your time.

It would be great to have some sort of explanation or simplification of the e-spec editor function. While I have found partial explanations as to what some things do, I have so far not found a clear but concise explanation. I ask for simplification as I am no physics guru, and although I did physics at high school, something resembling more of a 'laymans' guide would be much more useful. I've made numerous attempts to alter the spec in an attempt to achieve an HST set that accelerates at something even approaching a prototypical rate but have been less than successful. I'd very happily take improved physics over graphics enhancements.

Cheers,
Innis

***EDIT***

I hadn't realised a number of people have said exactly the same as I just did. Just to add to my initial post, I love the surveyor feature of Trainz. It's very easy to use and achieve great results with but because of the poor driving experience, all I ever do regarding running trains is to test routes work as I'd expect. As is mentioned above, above all I'd like to see a version of the e-spec editor that everyone can use and improvements to the actual driving experience as that, for me, is core to the sim.
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