T:ANE

General Trainz discussion and questions.
chazi898
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Re: T:ANE

Post by chazi898 »

Guys, this has got a bit to out of hand for my liking, considering I only suggested 'holding off'.
I myself cannot literally upgrade to TRS2019 with a click of a button, just like that, money in hand, or not, simply because I run Trainz 12 on a potato, never mind some fancy new shiny pearl that looks the part but cannot perform the part. I would say though, with any upgrade as such to the Trainz franchise (which I've known since UTC days), you expect something that works better than the last version, with the next upgrade you get, no matter how big or small that leap in platform is. So to be honest, we should all hold our own reluctances towards 'the next big thing' that will 'fix' the last bug and the last....but I don't think buffering those reluctances along on a forum I doubt developers even look at, never mind reply to, will get us any further into the future than we already are, in relation to how N3V handles the releases of 'the next installment'. Expectations play a big part in the debate of 'will the next one be better?', but we should balance this out with a little slack for everyone, N3V games, Trainz Users, the developers/testers...etc, because you cannot souly rely on one thing in life, because it wont get you far.

On a very much less heated note, Mightyena, I'd be interested to know are your crashes in TS12 SP1 related to any runtime errors of such or anything relatable? Because, I run the same version now, after reluctantly updating to SP1, (sure enough my assets break in the process), and I have experienced crashes like this, which stop me from building any further on selected routes I have, so I'd be interested to know if or what you do with the crashes in TS12 SP1.

Thank you for your time, Chazi.
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Briggsy
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Trainz Version: TRS2019 + TANE SP3
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Re: T:ANE

Post by Briggsy »

Clam1952 in defending N3V to the hilt shocker.

If we're paying full price for a product that doesn't work properly - especially three years after it's release - then we're entitled to moan about it.

On a side note, would you like to buy a pair of jeans off me for £40? They look really nice - but they have 8 holes in around the arse. Don't worry though - I have some spare fabric so I'll cut you some patches to cover the holes gradually over the next three years - and then by 2021, the jeans will be perfect.
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Briggsy
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Re: T:ANE

Post by Briggsy »

cyberdonblue wrote:If anybody is interested, I've just seen T:ANE SP1 available on Steam for £7.49p. Upgrades free, it says - but we knew that anyway. Absolute bargain if you ask me though.

Cheers

Dave
Offer N3V a fiver with the remaining £2.49p to be paid upon TANEs completion.

You'll get it for a fiver then.......
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Briggsy
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Re: T:ANE

Post by Briggsy »

clam1952 wrote:Those who paid for early access expecting rather stupidly that it would be the release version can only blame themselves.
I agree - what kind of idiot would pay for a buggy, early access version that is incomplete and will inevitably behave erratically - rather than waiting just a bit longer for the official release that will be buggy, incomplete and inevitably behave erratically :mrgreen:
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VernM
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Trainz Version: TS2010, TS12 T:ANE
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Re: T:ANE

Post by VernM »

Any complaints or as I prefer to view it constructive criticism about TRS2019 I've been posting on the N3V forum and elsewhere are, IMHO, entirely justified given this is deluxe level priced software.

I actually quite like TRS2019 but it has issues - most noticeably the lighting and shaders which has now been pretty much acknowledged as playing havoc with older content.

The just released Sebino route is receiving rave accolades but under the surface there are a few issues. At least one level crossing has traffic passing over it when the barriers are down and the author even acknowledged this was a design choice. The loco uses old default 1st gen EMD sounds and the Aln668 DMU is even worse, being aliased to the 17 year old Alco sounds and the Red Hen cab. They really need to raise their game when offering this as default content in a £55 product.
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cyberdonblue
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Re: T:ANE

Post by cyberdonblue »

chazi898 wrote:Guys, this has got a bit to out of hand for my liking...

...Thank you for your time, Chazi.
I'm sorry it makes you feel like that, Chazi, but that's not how I would want it to come across. I have great respect for Malc, clam1952, his opinions and his wonderful creations for Trainz. I have great respect for the opinions of anyone hereabouts who may wish to join in the debate. And that's what it is. A debate. Not personal, not trading insults (though I have descended to that level on one occasion, I confess.) I try to uphold the principle that no one's opinion is wrong. It's their's and they have a right to express it. That's what free speech is all about. Letting people with views that you don't particularly like or agree with have equal time and opportunity to express them. I certainly am not about to start arguing with Malc, or anyone else, just because they express a different view to mine. The beauty of the British Forums is that you can debate a topic here without trading insults (unlike another place that I might venture to mention one day.)

I'm passionate about the things I write on this subject because I've suffered the pain of many hours of work being damaged or destroyed by N3V's careless updates. I believe it is careless too because it's been a regular thing with these SP's and patches for years. I was one of T:ANE's biggest supporters when it first appeared for testing. I stood and fought in its corner when many people slammed it. I spent hours and hours rigorously testing it, really believing that this time it was going to deliver - and then N3V let all of the beta testers down by releasing the product when WE all said it wasn't ready! The rest, as they say, is history.
chazi898 wrote:...but we should balance this out with a little slack for everyone, N3V games, Trainz Users, the developers/testers...etc, because you cannot souly rely on one thing in life, because it wont get you far.
I'm not one for holding grudges, Chazi, but I've been making allowances for N3V/Auran ever since 2004 when I bought my first copy of Trainz. They just don't listen to the people who test or use their products, despite statements to the contrary. That's what I meant when I said that it was once too often this time, referring to N3V's "tricks." They can't wait to get the software out the door. It's as if someone looks at it and says, "That'll do. We can blag on the forum about an update later."

If the powers that be decided that they needed to branch off onto another version of Trainz at this point (after the T:ANE debacle) then maybe they should have expanded their pool of programmers in order to do the job properly. Maybe they should have gone the extra mile to make the new product as near perfect as you can get, knowing that confidence in N3V and their products was fragile to say the least. As it is, you have a half finished project on one hand (T:ANE) and a bugged and half produced product on the other hand. That's certainly no recommendation to anyone looking to invest, is it?

Cheers

Dave
clam1952
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Re: T:ANE

Post by clam1952 »

Briggsy wrote:Clam1952 in defending N3V to the hilt shocker.

If we're paying full price for a product that doesn't work properly - especially three years after it's release - then we're entitled to moan about it.

On a side note, would you like to buy a pair of jeans off me for £40? They look really nice - but they have 8 holes in around the arse. Don't worry though - I have some spare fabric so I'll cut you some patches to cover the holes gradually over the next three years - and then by 2021, the jeans will be perfect.
Bad comparison, people do buy New jeans with holes in them by the way :lol:

Not defending to the hilt if you read my post properly, however I tend to look at things from the developers side having done a fair bit myself in a past life both for an FPS game that never got finished and Linux Development. You can in extreme circumstances spend days or weeks trying to find that one line of code that causes a bug for a small number of people, takes too long and it gets put on the back burner.
Again, with any software you are not buying a product, you are buying a license to use it and nearly all software licences are formulated in such a way as any faults or omissions are covered, so the end user has little if any come back other than if it doesn't work at all. Until that is addressed by Governments and legislation put in place, it's not going to change.

Define does not work properly? or put another way, it depends on how and what you use it for, what assets and scripts you use, which are in the main third party created and what the creator be it N3V or Joe Bloggs actually intended, which common to all software is often is not what the marketing hype might suggest. Put another way if user A is using a completely different set of routes and assets to user B then A may never see the same problems as B and consequently A may be fed up with it and B may be quite happy with no issues, both can state their opinions based on what they are seeing, neither is right or wrong or an N3V fanboi if you follow my drift, it's just never happened to them.

TANE works perfectly well enough for what I use it for now, doesn't mean it does for everyone and if I hadn't spent about a month working with the devs sorting out a serious issue here with TANE SP2 Beta before it was released, rather than rant about it, it wouldn't for me as only a couple of us were affected during the beta.

And as for sticking up for N3V, I was one of the the first to point out an issue with the just released Sabino Lake Route as well as going to town on the issue with skipper1945's locos which are now fixed or rather the game code is fixed and I raised the issue of apparent flipped normals that were not flipped in TANE, also now fixed. Without those of us reporting these sort of issues and providing the evidence, they would never get sorted and TS12 TANE and now TRS19 would be full of show stopping faults. That's how Beta testing is supposed to work. However in common with all software not everything gets fixed or worse can be fixed without breaking something else.
Whatever you might think of them, running down the developers, making accusations and name calling does not equal a better game, constructive criticism with proper bug reports is the only way you might get things done.
Cheers

Malc

Member of Trainz Carriage and Wagon Works
http://www.trainz-carriage-wagon-works.com/
clam1952
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Re: T:ANE

Post by clam1952 »

chazi898 wrote: On a very much less heated note, Mightyena, I'd be interested to know are your crashes in TS12 SP1 related to any runtime errors of such or anything relatable? Because, I run the same version now, after reluctantly updating to SP1, (sure enough my assets break in the process), and I have experienced crashes like this, which stop me from building any further on selected routes I have, so I'd be interested to know if or what you do with the crashes in TS12 SP1.

Thank you for your time, Chazi.
Briefly......
TS12 Crashes? probably an asset of some kind, back when I was using TS12 there was an oldish Ground texture that caused problems, a chain mesh fence, and one of Mcguirels SpeedTrees. It's a horrendous job trying to track down what is responsible in TS12, other than looking at the log to see if anything is producing an error while the game is running which may give a clue, easier in TANE as you can disable stuff.

Had an issue in Tane that caused a crash, narrowed it down to one particular asset, a vehicle, deleted it, crash gone, reinstalled it from the DLS and there was no problem, go figure ;o)
Cheers

Malc

Member of Trainz Carriage and Wagon Works
http://www.trainz-carriage-wagon-works.com/
clam1952
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Re: T:ANE

Post by clam1952 »

cyberdonblue wrote: If the powers that be decided that they needed to branch off onto another version of Trainz at this point (after the T:ANE debacle) then maybe they should have expanded their pool of programmers in order to do the job properly.
I think possibly they may have done just that, based on a couple of names cropping up I have not heard of before, may explain how they can work on both TANE and TRS19 at the same time, time may tell. :?
Cheers

Malc

Member of Trainz Carriage and Wagon Works
http://www.trainz-carriage-wagon-works.com/
chazi898
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Re: T:ANE

Post by chazi898 »

I understand that you have the right to exercise your free speech on the matter, and I accept that you see the British Trainz forums beauty of giving a place to debate something without slashing the tongue around wildly. However that wasn't really my point. See if you picked out the first bit of my post, it read:
I myself cannot literally upgrade to TRS2019 with a click of a button, just like that, money in hand, or not, simply because I run Trainz 12 on a potato, never mind some fancy new shiny pearl that looks the part but cannot perform the part.
You see, I wasn't merely offering a recommendation for or against Trainz 2019, because I am yet to gather the experience of it before I can form an opinion over the matter of their 'latest installment', and that fact I have a soft spot for N3V games, because really, I don't. This coupled with the fact that I only suggested 'holding off' and the fact a bit 'out of hand for my liking' didn't mean I was offended in any way, because I didn't take it personally. What I am trying to get at with this 'liking thing' is that I have had the odd scavenge round the Trainz forums over the years, and noticed the amount of developers that have entirely quit Trainz, away from the community, just to get away from the demand or pressure from the community (or for other reasons entirely for that matter) and like many 'I want'ers in the Trainz community, I wouldn't want to see them going away, more specifically on my part, the few creators we have left, going away for the same reason. Even more specifically, I wouldn't want creators like yourself, Mightyena, Briggsy, clam1952, PFX, nexusdj, Marky7890, klambert, Class172, Itareus, the list goes on...going away too, because like many Trainz'ers here, I cherish what I have in my collection on Trainz, and honestly because I'm the sad person I am, it holds a great part of my life, knowing I have something to do that's what I love doing. So, seeing creators like yourself going away would honestly ruin me, because I don't want to see the Trainz community diminish any more, while I notice 'The Other Sim's community is ever thriving, because I want to know there is equally the same amount of support within the community that I know exists else-where, and that I still have 'something to do that's what I love doing'. So to link in a used example, while Briggsy may offer a pair of £40 jeans that look nice but have '8 holes in around the arse', that certain gullible people may fall into the trap of, and others wont, while he says he will patch up the holes over the next three years, and then they will be perfect, do you think he will still do that if all he can hear in the background is 'You let us down', 'You don't work', 'Why don't you work the first time?'
Also I'm sorry because I don't want to get at you personally for things like this, because then what I just described (above the jeans) will happen, and I don't want to see that, and I'm also sorry for causing a bit of a stir within a small but open topic, but please understand my point.
Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent, but I hope you see what I'm getting at. Plus if any of this comes across as offensive, then im deeply sorry, as that is not my intentions. While it may be a bit hard for me to express my intentions, as I reside somewhere on the autistic spectrum to some extent, plus I cannot say I have the same experience with the English language as others do, but I still think my statement holds atleast some validity.

Thank you for your time, Chazi.
chazi898
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Re: T:ANE

Post by chazi898 »

clam1952
TS12 Crashes?
Two things:
1.
the selected routes(or route) that is playing up does not contain any ground textures fences or speed trees in that certain location where it is playing up (for that matter nothing faulty that I know of), which is why im so clueless as to why it doesn't like it.
2.
would you be so kind as to tell me how to check the log and find this faulty asset as the log puts it please?


i'd really like this issue fixing as it is the first (and most personal) big project in trainz I can really put effort into as it needs from me. I also thing if it is completed to a standard people accept it for what it should be, then it would fill a gaping whole (I think) in the route offering.
Last edited by chazi898 on Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cyberdonblue
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Trainz Version: 2006 2012 T:ANE SP3
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Re: T:ANE

Post by cyberdonblue »

Thanks for the information, Malc. I'm really not (believe it or not) anti N3V, just very sore. I've spent the best part of two weeks solid beavering away to recover 2 routes that I've already invested many hours in (particularly the Aylesbury - Marylebone route) to get them to where they are now. With all the big fan fares and noise about Trainz 2019 I can't help feeling more than a little neglected - especially when difficulties such as I have experienced suddenly surface. It knocks the heart and soul out of your enthusiasm to continue when you start to feel that you're working away like a lunatic to produce a route that's already not going to work on the latest version of Trainz anyway. You know yourself, Malc, you don't build a route in 5 minutes and it doesn't do anyone any favours when N3V keep "moving on" before they've even finished the current version. Had we been approaching summer now instead of winter, I might have abandoned both projects altogether. However, like you and many others besides, I'm hooked on Trainz and simply walking away isn't an option.

Chazi, your comments are very welcome, my friend, and no offence has been taken by me over anything you have said or suggested - and I'm sure by no one else either. The only thing that upsets me here is the thought of 8 holes around Briggsy's arse! :shock: In fact the thought of just ONE terrifies me :lol: Oh my! I think I need a very stiff drink! :?

Cheers

Dave ;)

P.S. Chazi, I don't think I could justify my name being included in your list of some of our finest creators. My skills are minor and have evolved through modifying other people's work (except for my routes, of course. ;) Thank you for the compliment though.
chazi898
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Trainz Version: TS 2012
Location: England

Re: T:ANE

Post by chazi898 »

Well then thank you for that clarification cyberdonblue. Its good to know that you wont be poking around those 8 holes in his arse :lol: , and that I can rely on the trainz community to thrive as it should :D . Plus coming winter, I think we all need a stiff one.. ;)

On the topic of how good creators are, (plus as long as I know you've created something people will use with satisfying thoughts, then I think it can stay on my list :D ) I'd appreciate if you took alook at my latest thread that I'm about to post, about a small model railway (my first contribution to the trainz community published), as I'd like to see what the community thinks of my route building level.
clam1952
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Re: T:ANE

Post by clam1952 »

chazi898 wrote:clam1952
TS12 Crashes?
Two things:
1.
the selected routes(or route) that is playing up does not contain any ground textures fences or speed trees in that certain location where it is playing up (for that matter nothing faulty that I know of), which is why im so clueless as to why it doesn't like it.
2.
would you be so kind as to tell me how to check the log and find this faulty asset as the log puts it please?


i'd really like this issue fixing as it is the first (and most personal) big project in trainz I can really put effort into as it needs from me. I also thing if it is completed to a standard people accept it for what it should be, then it would fill a gaping whole (I think) in the route offering.
jetlog.txt there's one in the TS12 folder and another on and off in the TS12\bin folder as in sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not, never worked out why!
Anything that has a kuid with warning or error, be aware there are a lot of other errors that are ignored.

Sometimes just cloning the route in CM or save as in game can fix problems.

Edit: Just had another thought, check the track in Wiremesh view, I had it happen where there are bits of track attached to spline points going vertically downwards with no idication of a junction, how that happens I have no idea as I'm pretty sure I didn't do it, never happened in TANE thankfully.
Cheers

Malc

Member of Trainz Carriage and Wagon Works
http://www.trainz-carriage-wagon-works.com/
chazi898
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Posts: 52
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Trainz Version: TS 2012
Location: England

Re: T:ANE

Post by chazi898 »

Huh. I just cloned the Route via 'Save As' under a different name and now its not crashing! :D
To be honest, a platform I've put down, spline points are showing up, but no mesh. I can fix this, but I still find it odd since I thought it was ok.
I swear I've tried everything under the sun, including that exact thing, just I don't think I did it while in the SP1 version.

Thanks clam1952!
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