Class 158 Info

[bj1888]

Hello all,

I'm currently putting the finishing touches to a new Class 158 I've been working on and I'd like to get it as accurate as possible, so I thought I would ask if anyone here is familiar with the train and might be willing to answer a few questions about it. First off though I should say my intention is to release this as some form of payware so if it's not ok to be asking for such help here then just say and I'll leave it or delete the thread or if an admin does then that's fair enough.

Anyway, one thing I'm trying to do with this is to create a good cab driving experience so I'd be interested to know what the driving characteristics of the train are like when applying the brakes and the throttle.

At the minute for each throttle notch the speed increases roughly by about 15mph. I'm wondering if each notch is really that linear?
The train is pretty sluggish off the line and really needs to be in at least notch 3 to get it moving.
It will only wheel slip if you put it into notch 7 at less than 15mph.
Power to the engine is automatically cut when there is wheel slip.
Top speed is about 100mph. (I'm assuming the max speed of 90mph doesn't mean the train isn't actually capable of going faster than 90mph)

When braking the stopping distances from 80mph for each step are:
step 1: 0.69 miles (1110 metres)
step 2: 0.43 miles (692 metres)
step 3: 0.34 miles (547 metres)
emergency: 0.26 miles (418 metres)

Power is cut/can't be applied to the engine if brake step 2 or above is used.

Does any of this look reasonable/correct or is it way off and are there any other specific features or behaviours that you think the train might need?


One other thing, I think I've figured out a way to get the engine to start/stop so I'd be interested to know what the start up and shutdown procedure is for the 158 to see if it would be possible to implement it somehow.

Well that'll do for now and any info will be gratefully received.

Thanks,
Brendan

Here's a partial feature list and a few wip screenshots:

3 step brake.
Driver's Reminder Appliance.
Driver's Vigilance/Safety? Device.
Working Destination Indicator Controller.
Cab instrument lights.
AWS.
2 speed wipers.
2 tone horn (not a great sound effect to be honest)
Multiple liveries.
Animated doors.
Random/Definable running numbers. (I'm not sure if I can get this accurate by region. If I can I will.)
Swappable fairing/plough.
Swappable head lights type.
Custom HUD controls.

[Marky7890]

Wow. That looks fantastic! Loving the cab shot, will there also be inside cameras as a passenger?

[Briggsy]

Can't help you with this i'm afraid - but that looks incredible.

It may be worth looking on Youtube for Class 158 cab ride videos. Sometimes drivers post videos of their journeys from the cab. You could then ask them if they mind providing you with some of the info you're looking for.

EDIT:

Such as this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G8j85u9rKo

[ScottAS2]

I've no info for you, but that looks like an impressive model. I'll definitely consider buying this once you have a full release.

[Nexusdj]

I think Dave (Cyberdonblue) of this parish was probably passed to drive 158's so if he pops by again he maybe able to help ?

There's a thread on the RailUK forum that goes into detail about power handle notching mostly on Northern 158's :
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/no ... ue.179027/

From what I was told by other drivers when I worked on the railway was that it was usually notch 4 or 5 for a standing start, build up speed and between 12 and 15 mph notch up to 7 .
As far as I can remember back in BR days when the 150's went into service most drivers used to go straight into notch 7 to start off if the prevailing conditions (clear signals , track speed etc.) allowed . The BR Board where getting concerned about the amount of fuel that the units where using whilst in service so Derby RTC was asked to look into it , What was found was that the units would not accelerate any quicker from a standing start above notch 5 so using notches 6 & 7 burnt unnecessary fuel without any gain . Amended driving instructions where then issued to drivers .

[bj1888]

Wow. That looks fantastic! Loving the cab shot, will there also be inside cameras as a passenger?

I do plan to add a passenger interior although I think it's more likely to be as an update after release.
I need to find out what the interiors for each operator look like first.

Such as this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G8j85u9rKo

It looks like my wiper animation might be a bit too smooth. Videos like that have been good for getting a feel for how it drives. What I'd really like to see is a video that shows the speedometer and brake gauges during a normal run.
I've based what I've done so far on this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_UFNB2Ujec but it's not a 158 so I'm just assuming the way the brakes operate would be the same.

I've no info for you, but that looks like an impressive model. I'll definitely consider buying this once you have a full release.

Thanks.

From what I was told by other drivers when I worked on the railway was that it was usually notch 4 or 5 for a standing start, build up speed and between 12 and 15 mph notch up to 7 .
As far as I can remember back in BR days when the 150's went into service most drivers used to go straight into notch 7 to start off if the prevailing conditions (clear signals , track speed etc.) allowed . The BR Board where getting concerned about the amount of fuel that the units where using whilst in service so Derby RTC was asked to look into it , What was found was that the units would not accelerate any quicker from a standing start above notch 5 so using notches 6 & 7 burnt unnecessary fuel without any gain . Amended driving instructions where then issued to drivers .

Thanks Nexusdj. That's a big help and there is some good info in the link you posted as well.
It looks like I'm not far off actually but I can see a few things I could improve.

[SnakeLight64]

Excellent skills you have, It has inspired me more so with my 1992 Stock detailing!

Looking forward to this

Reece

[evertrainz]

I don’t have anything of much help but will definitely say it looks fantastic - keep up the great work!

Ron

[Pmikeyandhiskfc]

Fantastic work! Great to see some Trainz models rivalling other Train Simulator'sthese past few years!

[klambert]

Absolutely fantastic work!

I have some questions myself:
What software package did you model the train and cab in?
Regarding the textures, they look brilliant! Are you using Trainz Physical Materials/Substance designer?

In regards to the driving physics, when I made my 423 I compared with relatively similar trainz models, and adjusted accordingly.

[cyberdonblue]

Hi Brendan. I must add my admiration of your stunning work to the list of people above - although, as a former B.R. man, I dislike the privatised liveries in the extreme lol! That's not a criticism of your excellent work in any way though. Outstanding. I worked on these Units for years and they were my favourite of all the Sprinter class trains. Your reproduction is stunningly lifelike. Despite the small cab they were very comfortable (though not so much for the long legged buggers lol!) The video you watched of the Dusty Bins (321's) and the braking techniques used therein are identical for all 3 step braking Units and the guages respond in the same manner too so are a good enough guide for what you're looking for.

As Dave (Nexusdj) wrote above, nobody ever opened the throttle on these Units notch by notch. Track, weather and speed conditions permitting we'd take notch 7 (max.) right from the off (even after the "advice" to drivers about the altered driving techniques.) You'd be sitting there all day otherwise (or rolling backwards rapidly at places like Old Hill.) At places like Birmingham New Street or Snow Hill you'd use something like notch 4 or 5 to get the train moving and then shut off at (or near cough cough) the required speed. As for braking, we rarely used anything other than step 3 (as in the YouTube video you watched) because you wouldn't feel or see any real noticeable retardation otherwise. You said also that your Unit cuts power at Brake Step 2. In reality, all locos and Units cut power off the second you move the brake controller away from the "Off" position.

As for the start up procedure, it was generally a quick scan of the rows of mcb's behind the driving position to make sure that nothing had tripped then put your key in, open the desk and press the start button (holding it in until the red 'engine stop' light went out to ensure that the rear vehicle had started also.) There were occasions where the B.I.S was switched out so you'd just check that as you approached the Unit but it was a rarity as a rule.

If there's anything I can offer you advice on then please don't hesitate to ask. I don't claim to be an expert but if my old brain can recall something that helps you then that's fine. Oh and yes, in my time 158's would do (and often did [cough] 100 mph given the room and the time - just shy of about 105 was about the best I personally ever achieved but I'd never admit it )

Cheers

Dave

[gds]

Looks fantastic - just what TANE needs.

[bj1888]

Many thanks everyone for your positive comments.

[bj1888]

Absolutely fantastic work!

I have some questions myself:
What software package did you model the train and cab in?
Regarding the textures, they look brilliant! Are you using Trainz Physical Materials/Substance designer?

In regards to the driving physics, when I made my 423 I compared with relatively similar trainz models, and adjusted accordingly.

Thanks.

It was modelled using Blender 2.79 and there is no PBR involved. It's being developed for TANE so it's just the old materials. I suppose I'm cheating a little as it uses some modifications to the shaders I made. I posted them on the n3v forum a while ago. https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthr ... haders-mod (eek! that was 2018 , where'd that time go?).

I think the thing that helps the look of the textures is the use of a baked ambient occlusion layer. I find it really helps to connect the separate parts together. The textures are all high res as well, so that helps too.
The body is a m.tbumpenv. The shiny parts in the cab are m.gloss. The windows are m.reflect and when I hit on some good settings for them I thought it made a huge difference to how they looked. Before, they were just a m.tbumptex with some alpha.

Hope this helps. If there's anything specific you'd like to know about then feel free to ask.

Brendan

[bj1888]

Good stuff Dave, thanks. Your post has been really helpful.

I do have a few more questions for you and if any of them seem a bit daft it's because I know nothing about trains

Hi Brendan. I must add my admiration of your stunning work to the list of people above - although, as a former B.R. man, I dislike the privatised liveries in the extreme lol!

So what's your livery of choice then?
I plan to add as many as is practical. There's so many of them though and everytime I look it seems another franchise has changed hands and the livery with it.
They're not difficult to do though so if you (or anyone) have any preferences then point me to some reference photos and I'll see what I can do.

As Dave (Nexusdj) wrote above, nobody ever opened the throttle on these Units notch by notch. Track, weather and speed conditions permitting we'd take notch 7 (max.) right from the off (even after the "advice" to drivers about the altered driving techniques.) You'd be sitting there all day otherwise (or rolling backwards rapidly at places like Old Hill.) At places like Birmingham New Street or Snow Hill you'd use something like notch 4 or 5 to get the train moving and then shut off at (or near cough cough) the required speed.

So even in notch 7 you wouldn't get wheel slip in normal conditions?

As for braking, we rarely used anything other than step 3 (as in the YouTube video you watched) because you wouldn't feel or see any real noticeable retardation otherwise.

I reckon my brakes are too good then.
Also, I'm guessing for each brake step the brake cylinder pressures are 1 bar, 2 bar and 3 bar. Do you know if that would be right?

You said also that your Unit cuts power at Brake Step 2. In reality, all locos and Units cut power off the second you move the brake controller away from the "Off" position.

Does that mean when braking you could/would just leave the throttle in a particular notch when applying some brake to reduce speed to a certain level, rather than cut the throttle first, and normal power would resume once you released the brakes?

As for the start up procedure, it was generally a quick scan of the rows of mcb's behind the driving position to make sure that nothing had tripped then put your key in, open the desk and press the start button (holding it in until the red 'engine stop' light went out to ensure that the rear vehicle had started also.) There were occasions where the B.I.S was switched out so you'd just check that as you approached the Unit but it was a rarity as a rule.

Ah, so all those switches behind the driving position are actually trip switches. I take it they should all be up then?
I actually have those switches modelled but there's a few blanks in the labels. Would you happen to remember what was on all the switch labels? (this trainz content creation lark has turned me into a right little rivet counter )
What's a B.I.S.!

If there's anything I can offer you advice on then please don't hesitate to ask. I don't claim to be an expert but if my old brain can recall something that helps you then that's fine. Oh and yes, in my time 158's would do (and often did [cough] 100 mph given the room and the time - just shy of about 105 was about the best I personally ever achieved but I'd never admit it )

As far as I can tell the speedometer only goes up to 100, lol. I guess I'll just have to give the train a bit more oomph!


Well I'm sure I'll have some more questions for you before I'm finished and thanks again for your help.

Cheers,
Brendan