Who's rail???

[blackwatch13]

I wasn't shouting, I was emphasising .

If national ownership of the railways is a bad thing, then why are Italian, French & German (plus many other European railways) making such a good job of of it as nationalised, than ours is as privatised?

Such a good job of it in fact, that they can use ownership of our railways to make their own even better.

[Dean_Forest]

Are they making such a good job of it? The UK has less than half the subsidy per passenger km compared with SNCF/DB/FS/SNCB. People need to stop assuming that the grass is greener on the other side. The French operation leaves much to be desired too: Away from the TGV networks, SNCF's regional and commuter operations are run without thought for those it is supposed to serve, with no need to change because the regional governments are forced to stump up to fund their operation. According to Jean-Claude Delarue of SOS Usagers: "The TGV is generally a good service, although there are some problems, but there is a real need for investment in commuter and regional lines especially when it comes to maintenance".

DB is run as if it were a private operation with the Federal Republic of Germany as its only shareholder (this would be the ideal situation for us to be in as it has the advantages of an integrated operator that is kept at arms length from the government).

On the other hand, JNR was privatised in 1987 and has turned around a struggling system which now relies on very little subsidy with far higher public satisfaction than as a state operation.

Certain things make Britain's railways less efficient such as the restrictive loading gauge (Network Rail is spending a fortune on raising bridges on the GWML while the need to pack locomotives into a much tighter space than elsewhere especially with all the extra emission-reducing equipment that is mandated these days by EU law). The archaic 3rd rail system in use in the Southern region is another cost because of the inefficiency of using DC over long distances. As the railway has become more congested, more substations are needed, far more than on an AC system. Conversion to AC being prohibitively expensive because of the aforementioned loading gauge problems.

Incidentally, the UK and Denmark are the joint safest railways in Europe.

[Dean_Forest]

Ah excellent I'm glad we're on this topic, in fact currently, due to our current capitalist model, we're currently wasting about 2 billion tons of food, meanwhile in other parts of the world, people are dying from malnutrition. How is this possible? I heard somewhere that we're currently producing food food for at least four times our population.

Unless you reintroduce rationing you are not going to be able to stop individuals wasting food. Trust me, I once worked in an All-You-Can-Eat buffet.

Plenty of waste in Europe is created by the Common Agricultural Policy (central planning on a continental level).

You haven't actually named a successful centrally-planned economy yet?

[blackwatch13]

The Soviet Union was the most successful, but it is no longer with us.

[klambert]

Ah excellent I'm glad we're on this topic, in fact currently, due to our current capitalist model, we're currently wasting about 2 billion tons of food, meanwhile in other parts of the world, people are dying from malnutrition. How is this possible? I heard somewhere that we're currently producing food food for at least four times our population.

Unless you reintroduce rationing you are not going to be able to stop individuals wasting food. Trust me, I once worked in an All-You-Can-Eat buffet.

Plenty of waste in Europe is created by the Common Agricultural Policy (central planning on a continental level).

You haven't actually named a successful centrally-planned economy yet?

If you read through my previous post, I believe capitalism is best benefiited when supplemented by sections of a centrally planned economy, IE leave the freemarket, to deal with the sections where consumers would like choice, such as cars, food etc, meanwhile the infrastructure such as railways, gas, water, roads and electricity should be in public hands. There's many european countries that have benefitted by this arrangment. When the free market hits a bust period, it has a decent enough public foundation to be able to get back on it's feet. Look at the post war prosperity, keynesian economics brought to Britain.

Please read the rest of my comment on my previous post. I have quoted it for your reference.

I do not believe in a completely centrally planned economy, as stated, but I believe in elements that should be. Elements where you cannot introduce artifical elements of competition. This tends to be network type infrastructure, where it would be either wasteful or to expensive to create duplicate infrastructure for the competition to run on.

In regards to eating habits, please use a bit of critical thinking rather than the tired old lines of 'things are the way they are, it has problems but lets not try to solve it, as things could be worse'. Malnutrition and overeating are caused by distrubution issues, food is distrubuted using money. If it's too easy for some people to obtain and not easy enough for others, that suggests there's a problem. IE do we really need 24 hour supermarkets as opposed to 12 hour ones, and so many takeaway, outlets. We didn't have that luxury or in regards to takeaways, less of it, 40 years ago and people got by. Think of the waste all that additional trading will be creating.

[Dean_Forest]

The Soviet Union was the most successful, but it is no longer with us.

Given the human rights abuses, famines, forced labour, etc. I think I can safely say that if the USSR was a success, god help the poor sods who lived in a failure.

[Dean_Forest]

If you read through my previous post, I believe capitalism is best benefiited when supplemented by sections of a centrally planned economy, IE leave the freemarket, to deal with the sections where consumers would like choice, such as cars, food etc, meanwhile the infrastructure such as railways, gas, water, roads and electricity should be in public hands. There's many european countries that have benefitted by this arrangment. When the free market hits a bust period, it has a decent enough public foundation to be able to get back on it's feet. Look at the post war prosperity, keynesian economics brought to Britain.

So how do you decide what is an essential service that should be taken into public hands? Surely food is more essential than any services except for water. I quite like having choice in my train services, if I wanted to travel between London and Birmingham I can choose between Virgin (fast, uncomfortable, expensive); London Midland (slow, uncomfortable, cheap) or Chiltern (semi-fast, comfortable, moderately priced). Choice drives innovation.

I do not believe in a completely centrally planned economy, as stated, but I believe in elements that should be. Elements where you cannot introduce artifical elements of competition. This tends to be network type infrastructure, where it would be either wasteful or to expensive to create duplicate infrastructure for the competition to run on.

I agree that there are some services such as electricity where the idea of competition is a silly idea (no matter which provider you have, it's still going to be the same electricity, from the same power stations, coming down the same wires). I believe though that apart from the former Provincial sector (let's face it, there's no point having two lines running to the Kyle of Minogue), there are plenty of places in the railways where competition is a force for good. I've already listed London to Birmingham and there are plenty of other Intercity and NSE routes where duplication is worthwhile due to the fact that there is enough demand for all routes to have a worthwhile share of the pie.

In regards to eating habits, please use a bit of critical thinking rather than the tired old lines of 'things are the way they are, it has problems but lets not try to solve it, as things could be worse'.

Trust me, dealing with the general public quickly robs you of any belief in the goodness of human nature. Ever heard of what goes on in a Chinese zoo? Basically a live cow will be pushed into the cage of a bunch of starving lions who promptly rip the things to shreds for the entertainment of the crowds. No need to fly all the way to China, I can show you it much closer to home and the big difference is that unlike those poor lions who have been deliberately starved to increase the crowd's entertainment, the humans I'm on about ate another big meal only a few hours beforehand.

Malnutrition and overeating are caused by distrubution issues, food is distrubuted using money. If it's too easy for some people to obtain and not easy enough for others, that suggests there's a problem.

We are just simply going to have to agree to disagree on this one as I am of the firm conviction that the cack-handed approach by the state (local, national and multi-national) has distorted the market.

IE do we really need 24 hour supermarkets as opposed to 12 hour ones, and so many takeaway, outlets. We didn't have that luxury or in regards to takeaways, less of it, 40 years ago and people got by. Think of the waste all that additional trading will be creating.

In respect of 24hr supermarkets, the difference between now and 40 years ago is that back then, there would be someone who could do my shopping for me. These days, both adults usually work full-time and therefore need to be able to fit grocery shopping around their respective jobs. For me, as a shift-worker working a six-day week and living alone, the provision of a 24hr Tesco has been invaluable. If you only get one day off a week, you can't wait for it to come around again to do your shopping because certain fresh foods simply do not last long enough. Likewise, when you are working silly hours (60+ hours a week when it was busy for me) then you have little time between working and sleeping to make extra trips out during the week just for shopping, it is far easier to be picking up the few things you need on your way home even though it is now 0100.

So, not to be entirely defeatist, what is your suggestion for stopping people wasting so much food?

[blackwatch13]

So, not to be entirely defeatist, what is your suggestion for stopping people wasting so much food?

Well rationing worked very well for a number of years

[Dean_Forest]

So, not to be entirely defeatist, what is your suggestion for stopping people wasting so much food?

Well rationing worked very well for a number of years

Indeed it did. Sadly though, times have changed. Witness the pandemonium that ensued when the 5p plastic bag tax was introduced in England. Some supermarkets even had to put security tags on baskets to stop them being pilfered by the hundred. People are so used to everything they demand being handed to them on a plate, they all want something for nothing.

It's not like the Civil Service are capable of organising a p***-up in a brewery anyway.

[cyberdonblue]

Well rationing worked very well for a number of years

So did getting sent to bed early ... er... sorry ...

Dave

[cyberdonblue]

Apologies for double posting...

...People are so used to everything they demand being handed to them on a plate, they all want something for nothing.

Seems to be a modern disease Dean

It's not like the Civil Service are capable of organising a p***-up in a brewery anyway.

Nothing new there then

Dave

[electra]

The government-operated DOR deferred major work on the rolling stock to make ends meet. Overhaul deadlines were pushed as far as possible.

I think you're getting your ICEC franchise holders mixed up. It was NXEC who were deferring work on their fleet - albeit minor, non-safety critical, work - which DOR spent a considerable amount of time and effort in putting right, once they took over.

Have you also forgotten that virtually the entire East Coast fleet went through Doncaster Works, during the time DOR was running things?