The Politics thread

[klambert]

This thread is to serve as the place to take any discussions/arguments on politics and to prevent other threads going off topic.

My thoughts on UKIP are, they do not represent a valid alternative to the three other main stream parties for these reasons, Farrage is from the same class of bankers and privateers that have on ridden the crest of this ridiculous neo-liberal wave since the 1980s. He's blaming the poor and migrants on the problems created by his class and he's an ex Thatcherite activist, UKIP is basically the conservate ideology on steroids.

Do we really need any more of this right wing nonsense? we've had enough of it since 1979.

I belive Ed Miliband is the first proper Labourite we've had since before Blair, yes he's awkward, uncomfortable and dorky, but I like that, I can identify with that. Farrage meanwhile strikes me as an arrogant rotter (had to really resist swearing there), who displays the sort of attitude that's typical of his type, we've had far too many arrogant PMs. The media have embarked on a serious smear campaign against Miliband so they must see him as a threat.

Another thing I don't trust is how Farrage behaves in front of the cameras, he's far too comfortable, most people who are PR savy aren't exactly the intellectual types, in fact all the best intellectuals have had the same temperament as Miliband.

Right I'm off to bed ...

[Briggsy]

Farage is a media man - he loves the attention he gets and really plays on the "pint down the pub with the working class" image.

I don't vote any particular party - I'm very much a neutral. I've voted for all of the "big three" in the past - and I'll continue to vote on that basis in the future depending on who I think is right at the time.

I haven't a clue who Im voting for next year. The thought of Cameron, Clegg or Miliband as PM horrified me - I don't trust any of them.

It's irrelevant who's in government - they're all multi-millionaires that have no experience of the real world. Until we've got party leaders that have experienced being made redundant, dealt with the clueless dweebs at the Job Centre, struggled to pay heating bills and worried about having to fund their rent/mortgage whilst earning the minimum wage doing a real job where they can't claim expenses, then we'll never see any real changes.

I do agree with Farage on one thing though - we really do need to clamp down on immigration. We can't keep letting tens of thousands of people into the country and find homes for them. There's already a housing crisis - yet somehow, we have to find more each year to accommodate these immigrants. Common sense says that the more people in the country = more strain on our services. Schools, housing, jobs, and our bursting at the seams NHS.

The only way we can accommodate this increasing population is by expanding the services at the same rate so that the population to houses available / jobs available / NHS staff available ratio is always in proportion. At the moment though, the exact opposite is happening - more and more people are entering the country, but the services are decreasing due to government cuts.

The maths simply don't add up. If you keep putting marbles into a jar, eventually, you won't fit any more marbles in.

The same applies to humans. Schools can only have so many pupils before they become overcrowded. The NHS can only handle do many people before the waiting lists get longer. A 4 hour wait is already too long to wait in A&E - yet hospitals are struggling to stick to that time scale. It can only be a matter of time before the increasing population and additional strain push those waiting times out to 5 or 6 hours. Then if we still keep letting people in, how long again before that becomes 7 or 8 hours.

The line needs to be drawn somewhere. We need to stop the population expanding so quickly. Throwing more and more money at the NHS isn't solving anything - but reducing the amount of people using our bursting services will.

Nothing will ever be solved though - politicians are too busy arguing with each other and point scoring between parties rather than actually working together to fix our creaking country. Labour could have the best idea in the world - but the Tories will dismiss it simply because an opposing party suggested it - and vice versa. Shut the hell up, stop squabbling with each other, and actually work together to focus on the job you should really be doing - running the country on behalf of the public.

Rant off. Annnnnd breathe..........

[Warbo40]

Politicians are all the same there in it for themselves and nobody else. I was a staunch labour voter but after what Blair and Brown did to this country in the end i won't vote for them ever again. As for Milliband the man is a spineless idiot if he became prime minister he just wouldn't know what to do.

I've voted for the Lib Dems in the past but never the tories and never will because i left school in the middle of the Thatcher years. Heavy industry had almost been decimated and seeing as i came out of school wanting to be an engineer i was a left with few options. There were very few oppourtunities in my local area even with Rolls Royce only a few miles away in Derby. The large companies such as BREL Derby works, Stanton Ironworks, Brush were all starting to downsize. Very few if any companies were taking on apprentices at that time which left me with one option doing what was called a YTS (Youth Training Scheme) at Litchurch Lane. The problem was they weren't going to take any of the YTS starters on permanently after their 2 years were over.

I'm not a racist but our country needs to get out of the EU because for some reason everybody in Europe and Africa believes our streets are paved with gold and our government has lost control of it's own country and policies. British people have been treated like second class citizens in their own country for to long. The cut backs are turning our country into a disgrace but the foreigners keep rolling in taking the money out of my country.

One of my sayings is that "i'm English first, British second but never European". We live on an island we are NOT part of Europe and if i were the PM one of the first things i'd do is have the channel tunnel bricked up. Even that was started by Thatcher's government.

End of rant.

[RedDragon]

I agree with almost everything that Warbo40 has posted.

Apart from the "i am english first and british second"

I am Welsh and nothing else.

I was also a life long Labour voter, but not anymore.

The social and ethnic engineering experiment has been a disaster and is a disgrace.

RD.

[Briggsy]

Politicians are all the same there in it for themselves and nobody else.

Absolutely. Spot on. And this is the biggest problem we have with British politics at the moment. All three party leaders are multi-millionaires.

The party that represents the so-called Working class (Labour) is lead by a career politician and is a millionaire. That's a serious flaw in itself. How can the party that supposedly represents the working class possibly understand the typical working man/woman that they represent when they've never had a "real" job in their life and they've never had to struggle on a typical working man/woman's fairly ordinary salary (that is rapidly falling way behind the cost of living).

I'm not a racist but our country needs to get out of the EU because for some reason everybody in Europe and Africa believes our streets are paved with gold and our government has lost control of it's own country and policies.

Again, spot on. The bold bit particularly highlights something I feel strongly about. We're not allowed to say what we feel now. We have to be politically correct. If we speak out about our foreign friends, we're branded as "racist". No, we're not racist - we just have passion for our country. Its a disgrace that immigrants can come over and get taxpayers money despite never paying into the system - yet we've got pensioners that have paid into the system all of their working life - yet are struggling to pay their gas and electricity bills because their state pension is not enough to live on.

I have no objections to a system like Australia where we let good quality, skilled, immigrants into the country that have something to offer. If they can support themselves from day one, pay into the system, learn to speak English and adapt to the British lifestyle - then sure, let them in.

If they have nothing to offer, take money out of the system before paying in, are completely unwilling to speak English and expect the system to provide interpreters for years at taxpayers expense - then no, I don't want them here. It must cost the UK a fortune alone in printing official leaflets in multiple languages and interpreters. If you come to England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, you speak the lingo - and you don't complain that our flags and Christmas holidays are "offensive". Its a coincidence that our benefits system never causes offence though.....

[Class172]

Again, spot on. The bold bit particularly highlights something I feel strongly about. We're not allowed to say what we feel now. We have to be politically correct. If we speak out about our foreign friends, we're branded as "racist". No, we're not racist - we just have passion for our country. Its a disgrace that immigrants can come over and get taxpayers money despite never paying into the system - yet we've got pensioners that have paid into the system all of their working life - yet are struggling to pay their gas and electricity bills because their state pension is not enough to live on.

I have no objections to a system like Australia where we let good quality, skilled, immigrants into the country that have something to offer. If they can support themselves from day one, pay into the system, learn to speak English and adapt to the British lifestyle - then sure, let them in.

If they have nothing to offer, take money out of the system before paying in, are completely unwilling to speak English and expect the system to provide interpreters for years at taxpayers expense - then no, I don't want them here. It must cost the UK a fortune alone in printing official leaflets in multiple languages and interpreters. If you come to England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, you speak the lingo - and you don't complain that our flags and Christmas holidays are "offensive". Its a coincidence that our benefits system never causes offence though.....

Quite a lot of points already raised in this thread featured in last week's Question Time. It's not a program I normally watch, but with the panel including Russell Brand and Nigel Farage, I decided to watch it on iPlayer.

There were occasions where if people agreed with any of Farage/UKIP's points, regardless if it was referring to immigration or not, a woman in the far corner would shout "racist," which in my opinion was not only wholly inappropriate to the situation but also very rude; I was pleased to see her silenced by another audience member later in the show when she blasted out again!

I found it a very interesting episode - Question Time (Canterbury) - 11/12/14

[Warbo40]

Exactly Briggsy.

Australia do have the right idea while this country says that foreigners can stay in this country as long as they can find a job within 6 months or they have to leave. What's stopping disappearing before that 6 months is over and working illegally. Nothing absolutely nothing. Even i couldn't work in Australia as one i don't have any engineering papers as i didn't do an apprenticeship when i left school but went down the college route for over 5 years. Passing courses at BTEC, ONC and HNC levels stopping short of going to uni to do a degree level course.

I can remember what an old workmate told me a few years back concerning a particular engineering firm in the East Midlands. They decided to employ a few Polish guys but then a gaffer had the cheek to hand out Polish translation books to it's English speaking emplyees and asked to them to speak Polish to the new lads. What the hell !!!!

If i'd been employed there and they'd handed me a translation book and asked me to speak to the Polish guys in their language the best i could. Well i would've thrown it back at them and said excuse me what country do we live in. The Polish guys have come over here and taken a job off a British engineer. The best thing was one day one of the Polish guys was sent to the local shop with some of his work mates money, not much i may add i was told, to buy some food for their break but never came back. A few days later his Polish friend who also worked at the same company got a letter from him. He'd decided to go back to Poland and was never going to come back as he couldn't stand working at the place.

[PFX]

I currently have the highly enviable task of working at a devolved legislature. I'm surrounded by politics 9-5, Monday to Friday and if you even knew the half of it...

Such is my experience, I can't even bring myself to make comment on this discussion. It's just a pity more people couldn't see what goes on behind the scenes.

[Warbo40]

The rumour going around a few years ago is that many of my local councillors took bribes from a large supermarket chain. So they could gain planning permission to build one of their large supermarkets on redundant land when the town already had one already anyway. Don't know how true those rumours were.

I wouldn't trust politicians though as far as i could throw a 10 tonne weight and as you could guess that's not far. That's a good reason why i haven't voted for many years now.

[PFX]

If you don't vote, don't complain about them.

[Warbo40]

If you don't vote, don't complain about them.

That's the problem i don't vote because there all the same. There all in it for themselves and don't give a monkeys about anyone else. I might vote this year if any of the parties promise the voters a referendum on my countries EU membership but then again if that party gets into they'll no doubt change their mind and cancel it. Their all full of hollow promises.

[Briggsy]

That's the problem i don't vote because there all the same. There all in it for themselves and don't give a monkeys about anyone else. I might vote this year if any of the parties promise the voters a referendum on my countries EU membership but then again if that party gets into they'll no doubt change their mind and cancel it. Their all full of hollow promises.

The problem with that is that only the Tories are the only ones saying they're likely to give us that - and I don't trust Cameron to stick to his word should he get in again next year.

The only other possible option is UKIP getting a few seats - and possibly forming a coalition with someone. And the problem there if that happens is that nobody, other than Conservative, really want to offer a referendum - so in order for them to give in to UKIP to allow for that referendum, as part of a coalition, I'd imagine that the return deal is that they insist that Farage has to agree to pretty much everything else - and that would probably include selling his gran, signing the NHS away and selling his soul to the devil if he gets the one things he wants - a referendum.

Fasten to your seatbelts folks, we're going to be in for a bumpy ride.

On a side note, PFX is right to some extent. If we don't vote, we kind of give up our right to complain when a party we don't like gets in. Plus it doesn't really achieve a great deal. If you hate the big parties, then try voting for a party that has absolutely zero chance of getting into power - that way, it's a real protest vote and sends a message out to the big parties.

[cyberdonblue]

It is through apathy and abstention that the extremists gain a foothold. Then, when they gain a controlling interest, they remove your right to vote. Anyone who disagrees with how they operate after that just "disappears."

"All that evil requires to succeed is that good men do nothing."

Dave

[james73]

I find it depressing the way UK politics has gone, and even more depressing the way a one-trick-pony
reactionary button-presser like Farage gets so much airtime and credence. Pin him down on any of his
points and he struggles to answer back. His "29m Bulgarians & Romanians will be coming to Britain..."
nonsense (there isn't even that amount of people in both countries) was so ridiculous it should've seen
him ridiculed from now till doomsday. But no, instead he's always pictured in the media being an "ordinary
bloke" supping a pint of fine ale in some quaint Ye Olde English hostelry, and he's never off Question Time
& Have I got News for You. Totally disproportionate media representation, IMO. He's a million miles away
from being an "ordinary bloke" - he's a dangerous reactionary individual.

I also don't recognise that the number one issue facing the UK is immigration - this is yet more reactionary
button-pressing, and sadly it seems to work with the Daily Mail/Sun reading brigade. Instead, how about
low-paid jobs, zero-hour contracts, reductions in in-work benefits, no introduction of a living wage, failure
to tax big business properly, failure to deal with bankers properly (how come none of them are in jail as
happened in Iceland?), MPs disgusting expense bills & house "flipping", the failure to even start investigating
the Westminster Paedophile ring, etc. I could go on. This current unelected government tried in it's first two
years to turn peoples prejudice against nurses, firemen, civil servants etc by trotting out the line "they've
got gold-plated pensions!". They largely failed. Since then we've seen UKIP and some tory back benchers
turn their sights on immigrants. Folk on the dole haven't escaped either - witness the plethora of poverty porn
TV shows designed to further divide and rule. It seems all it takes is to get the masses onside is a few high
profile unrepresentative cases of immigrants, families on benefits, or whatever, plus a new series of X Factor.


cyberdonblue above finished on a quote, so will I.

“We have the money, the power, the medical understanding, the scientific know-how, the love and the
community to produce a kind of human paradise. But we are led by the least among us – the least intelligent,
the least noble, the least visionary. We are led by the least among us and we do not fight back against
the dehumanizing values that are handed down as control icons.” – Terence McKenna

[Briggsy]

All of those topics are all issues that people are also irritated with - but I think the rise of UKIP suggests that one of the biggest irritations of all is immigration.

People are sick of it. People do want it controlled. It is a major problem alongside many other problems.

Whether it's the number one issue to sort is open to debate - but it must certainly be one of the top 5 I'd imagine. Our services aren't expanding to the same ratio as people coming into the country. The NHS can't cope. Our schools can't cope. Our housing system can't cope. There's simply not enough services to go around - and as time goes on, and the population increases more, those services are going to be under even more pressure - until things hit crisis point.