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 Referendum: In or Out 
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 Post subject: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:46 pm 
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Surprised a post hasn't appeared about this yet with it being such a big vote and very important for the UK.

Who's in? Who's out? Anyone undecided?

At the moment, I'm still quite torn - and neither the "in" or "out" arguments by politicians are very convincing. Both sides seem to be using scaremongering and ridiculous speculative figures to try to persuade people - with hardly any good solid examples and arguments as to the pro's and cons of each. As things stand, I'm perhaps leaning more towards "out".

There are pro's and con's to being in and out - but my two biggest concerns with being "in" are:

A) I believe in democracy and the ability to vote in those that represent our views best. It concerns me greatly that more and more of our laws and powers are being taken away from our government - and forced upon us by Brussels. For as long as we're "in", this will continue.

B) Population: The level of net migration is simply far too high - and the UK cannot keep up with demand for housing, the strain on the NHS, schools, etc. The only way the UK can continue to keep up with the increase in population is by "upgrading" services each year so that it can cope. At the moment, the exact opposite is happening - the government are cutting back on budgets and services - yet the services are being used more and more each year. The two simply don't work together. So as we're not in a position to "upgrade" our services to the level required each year in order to keep up, the alternative needs to be done again - trying to reduce the strain on those services by cutting immigration. We cannot do that while we're "in". (awaits some smart arse to pipe up with the words "racist" or "UKIP" just because immigration has been mentioned.....)


My two biggest concerns with being "out" are:

A) It's untried. We don't know what we're in for until we've left. If, after voting out, we find that the UK is worse off, it's too late.

B) It leaves Cameron and his cronies able to have more power at Westminster. Although I favour the UK having more control over its laws, the thought of Cameron doing it concerns me.

So, 55/45 towards "out" for me.

How do you guys feel?


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:41 pm 
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Quote:
A) It's untried. We don't know what we're in for until we've left


What do you mean "untried" ?
We weren't always in the EU, some us can still remember when Britain was a 'soveriegn state', when
the government WE elected ran this country & made our laws.
We were ok then, we managed quite well in the days before our hard earned cash went to prop
up the lazy French farmer & the rest of europe, we can manage again.

They need us (and our cash), more than we need them, they sell a lot of goods to this country, do
you think they will stop wanting to sell to us & not get our money into their wallets ?

I vote OUT.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:09 pm 
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I'm voting to remain in for these reasons:

A) So workers rights that are protected by the EU which the Tories cannot meddle with remain protected

B) So manufacturing standards remain high, (I know the old British Kitemark was one the highest manufacturing standards in the world) but what's to prevent the Conservatives from lowering our standards to make us a more attractive export option for the Chinese.

D) To prevent our economy being further integrated with Chinese interests.

C) To annoy all those ruddy UKIPPERs who have long skewed the Leave Camps arguments into a bunch of xenophobic nonsense. Whenever the likes of Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith and Micheal Gove think something's a good idea. I can gurantee it'll be the opposite.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:20 pm 
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Voting "out" as i'm sick and tired of the EU telling us what to do and governing majority of this countries policies. Also i'm hoping it would mean a tighter control on migration. The trouble is i don't know the full in's and out's of what would happen to all the EU workers that work over here all ready and those that have been working here for a number of years.

I'm sick and tired of all the scare mongering by Cameron as well. The worst one was the other day saying if the country voted "out" then we'd have to put up with austerity for another 2 years. Err, didn't Cameron come out with that statement last year that we'd have to put up with austerity for a further 2 years until 2018 anyway because the cut backs weren't cutting down the deficit quick enough. If the "out" vote won then he and his tory cronies would have to work their socks off and actually start to earn their money like everyone else has to.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:17 am 
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blackwatch13 wrote:
Quote:
A) It's untried. We don't know what we're in for until we've left


What do you mean "untried" ?
We weren't always in the EU, some us can still remember when Britain was a 'soveriegn state', when
the government WE elected ran this country & made our laws.


Very true - but the world has changed a lot since then (for example, many jobs that were done by human then, are now done by machines, etc - as just one example).


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:28 am 
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Warbo40 wrote:
I'm sick and tired of all the scare mongering by Cameron as well. The worst one was the other day saying if the country voted "out" then we'd have to put up with austerity for another 2 years. Err, didn't Cameron come out with that statement last year that we'd have to put up with austerity for a further 2 years until 2018 anyway because the cut backs weren't cutting down the deficit quick enough. If the "out" vote won then he and his tory cronies would have to work their socks off and actually start to earn their money like everyone else has to.


I agree - and before he negotiated his so-called "new deal" with the EU, he was saying that if he didn't get the deal that he wanted, he'd have no concerns of leaving the EU because he was confident that the UK could leave UK and be strong on its own. Since he's agreed to his "new deal", all of a sudden, the UK will be doomed forever if we vote to leave.

The other ludicrous statement was George Osbourne's claim that each UK household would be £4300 per year worse off - but he still hasn't been able to give details of how that would be the case whenever he's been asked how that would be the case by the media. I also cannot take anything that Osborne says seriously anyway because his targets have been out every year since they came into government - to the point where he had to announce during the last budget that it would now be a further 2 years later than expected before the country is running at a surplus again.

If I heard a good solid debate using facts and clear examples of the pros and cons, then I could still be persuaded to change my mind - but with all the scaremongering from both sides, I can't take either the leave or remain groups seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 1:27 am 
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Never voted to join in the first place, this is about regaining our sovereignty, control of our own laws and borders and what the Government waste our money on, not what Brussels tells it to. Personally I'm voting out, sick and tired of the bureaucratic crap that Brussels dishes out, we are an Island nation not part of Europe.
The EU seems to be growing like some kind of virulent disease, it's too big dysfunctional and out of control and potentially spreading outside of Europe.
We need to put the Great back into Britain.
Hopefully a no vote will also get rid of Cameron, fingers crossed!

Malc


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 2:32 am 
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clam1952 wrote:
Never voted to join in the first place, this is about regaining our sovereignty, control of our own laws and borders and what the Government waste our money on, not what Brussels tells it to. Personally I'm voting out, sick and tired of the bureaucratic crap that Brussels dishes out, we are an Island nation not part of Europe.
The EU seems to be growing like some kind of virulent disease, it's too big dysfunctional and out of control and potentially spreading outside of Europe.
We need to put the Great back into Britain.
Hopefully a no vote will also get rid of Cameron, fingers crossed!

Malc


Spot on - although if we get rid of Cameron, we'll probably end up with Osbourne or Boris :cry: :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 7:38 am 
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clam1952 wrote:
We need to put the Great back into Britain.
Hopefully a no vote will also get rid of Cameron, fingers crossed!

Malc


I'm sorry Malc but I don't think Britain has ever been great, our class system prevents that.

I don't think Camerons the worst Tory we've had in charge, certainly not great but he's done a few good things. (Such as legalising gay marriage and offering to part nationalise Port Talbot) I just dread to think what'll happen if Johnson got in charge, he's done nothing for London so he'll do nothing for this country.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 8:29 pm 
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Rant Enabled :evil: :twisted:

Get Britain Out!!! I'm surprised at the Labour Party backing the remain argument because of the fear of losing workers rights. What's the matter? Are they planning to stay in opposition forever then? Or don't they know how to put legislation before Parliament? They could easily have done a lot for workers rights in all the time they were in power but Tory Blair just hijacked the Labour Party to carry on Thatcher's work and reinforce the Employers rights. If ever a politician should be in jail then it's that b*st*rd. I can't believe Labour still haven't completely disowned (or better still shot) the so-called "Blairites" that have still got the gall to hang around the party.

In the E U (which was originally called the Common Market and was not a political club at all) big business rules. Big business dictates what is and what shall be. The man in the street counts for nothing. Ask the Irish. When they voted against the E U a few years back what happened? The E U ordered another vote until they got the result THEY wanted. These people are as crooked as they come. They don't give a toss about you or me or anyone else in Europe. Only their own mates. The super rich. Big international business owners. Rich Arabs, Americans or anyone else who'll line their pockets for them. (Have a close look at this so-called Atlantic Trade Treaty thing that they're supposedly discussing between the E U and America. They want to open the door to American businesses to do what they like - including taking legal action against the government of any country that won't let them have their own way! But our government CAN'T sue them if anything goes wrong!)

The majority of people who intend voting to remain in Europe are the very wealthy or the young who've never known Britain without the thieving swines of Brussels hanging round our necks. We had a thriving import and export market trading with virtually every country in the world. New Zealand lamb filled the butchers shops. Yes, butchers shops. Those small independent traders we used to have on our High Streets before big international (mostly American based) big supermarket businesses swallowed them all up and put them out of business. We actually designed and built cars - and we did not assemble cars for the Japs, Indians, Chinese or anyone else. They talk about the modern British car industry. WE HAVEN'T GOT ONE! We work for every other country in the market. They even sold Rolls Royce to the Yanks!

They've destroyed our mining industry - we buy cheap Polish coal. Our Steel industry is about to go the same way. What else?

Britain was GREAT BRITAIN because we MADE THINGS! But because we refused to work for a pittance they flogged everything off to foreigners who could employ people for 10p a week. We were World leaders in design and technology before Thatcher sold the country's assets lock, stock and barrel to the highest bidders. All we do now is make room for foreigners to use our education system and NHS and wipe everyone else's arse!

Furthermore, if you look at every town centre/city centre in Europe now they are all identical. MacDonalds, M & S, KFC, Dixons, Clintons Cards, PC World, Virgin, you'll find them on almost every street in one form or another, whatever country or town you are in. Every shopping centre is identical. Big business drives it all and all they want is to take your money off you in as many different ways as they can. Oh, and to employ a few of you on non-contract hours for the minimum wage while they laze about on some tropical beach or other with a bottle of champers or two.

This is not living. We are becoming robots. Big business (big brother?) dictates all. The super rich deciding government policies. That's why Merkel and her cronies are frightened that we'll vote to leave. They know it will give other countries the courage to cry out for their own referendum. The Euro is a failure but Merkel and her mates won't let go incase people see it as a weakness. Deutschland uber alles! Over my dead body Mate! Hitler tried it with an army and came unstuck. She's trying to do it politically. When are we going to wake up and send her and her cronies packing?

GET BRITAIN OUT!!!

Rant Over! :evil:

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 9:39 pm 
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That's the best rant I have ever read and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 10:03 pm 
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Briggsy wrote:

Very true - but the world has changed a lot since then (for example, many jobs that were done by human then, are now done by machines, etc - as just one example).


If we withdraw from the EU, those jobs will continue to be made by the same machines, the machines aren't going to walk out on strike just because we vote leave + no change for the worse or the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 10:19 pm 
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As an addition to Dave's post, as railway enthusiasts, everyone on this board should sit & think ,,,,,,,,,,,,

........ what is the largest class of freight locomotive in this country ? ...........

answer :- class 66, now where do you think they are made ?

This country invented the railway, we sold loco's all across the globe, now we buy them from abroad, even the
new passenger stock is Japanese, built 'Under Licence', fer chistsake, we now need a ruddy foriegner
to give us permission to equip our own railway with stock. :x

If they were worried about British jobs, why did they shut our coalmines, why did they shut our loco works ?

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:30 pm 
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You know we stopped making things long before we joined the EU Dave? That was during the era of thatcherism.
Germany and France still make things. The reason why we do nothing is nothing to do with the EU and more to do with internal decisions.

All we do is dump all of Britains problems and blame other countries for them.
Loss of industry: "Most be the EU"
Endless Bureaucracy: "Blame it on the EU"
Underinvested healthcare system "blame it on the immigrants"
Lack of transport facilities:"blame it on the immigrants"

Ah well I may as well be talking to a brickwall as no one is even registering my points. I just keep seeing the same MAKE BRITAIN GREAT AGAIN!!!!!!! arguments.

Christ talk about cognitive bias. :x

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:45 pm 
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Quote:
Endless Bureaucracy: "Blame it on the EU"


Sorry Klambert, but THAT one is the fault of the EU, the amount of red tape they shove at businesses
has been criticised by business leaders themselves, plus all the laws that they force on us, that
the French (mainly) & other EU countries flaunt, that our government adheres to like the proverbial to
the blanket.
One instance of this is French, Dutch & Belgian fishing boats landing more than their quotas, while their
port officials turn a blind eye. This was proven by an undercover documentary on the t.v. 2 or 3 years ago
with hidden cameras & voice recorders, as far as I am aware, nothing was ever done about it.

You would be amazed at how many French boats are fishing in British waters every day, when our fishermen
have to stay tied up in port, you can check yourself on 'MarineTraffic.com', they must have quotas 10 times
what our boats have.

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