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 Referendum: In or Out 
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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:26 pm 
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My beloved Albion was a bit lacklustre last season so I would like all of last seasons games replayed on the off chance we may come out as Premiership leaders instead of Leicester . This is to be constantly repeated until we actually do :lol:

Its a daft statement but that's what the "remainers" are expecting to do with the EU vote .

As for Osborne and current his disappearing act , apparently he's currently in panto playing the child catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:51 pm 
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This has certainly upset a whole lot of people that thought we British no longer had a backbone for a fight. :lol:
Pity they didn't study their history books a bit more, when the British have their backs
to the wall, unlike the French, we don't wave the white flag.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:12 pm 
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Even better stats is that the young generation are blaming my generation, 47 years old or young depending on how you want to put it, and older generations for ruining their future. The truth is that only 30% of 18-24 year olds bothered to go out and vote so if anyone is to blame it's the 18-24 year olds who had better things to do and couldn't be bothered about their own futures. :lol: :roll:

We've had to put up for years the adverse effects of the EU on our country so now the young can put up with what has happened in the referendum vote. Get a grip it may be a challenge but also an opportunity for this country to carve out a different UK than it would've been within the EU. Possibly a much more wealthier, healthier and a more identifiable UK. The country in my opinion has taken it's first steps at regaining it's national identity which was becoming more and more blurred as a member of the EU.

First English, second British, never European. The last time i looked this country was an island and has never been connected to Europe albeit by a train tunnel which in my view should be bricked up anyway. Talking about that have you seen the picture doing the rounds on the internet from a Thomas the tank engine episode of a tunnel being bricked up saying it was live pictures from the channel tunnel.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:47 pm 
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It is rather pathetic that the turnout for my age range was in the region of 35%, you would think that given the magnitude of the situation that more of us would get off our arses, it took me 5 minutes at most to cast my vote and be back from the polling station...

As far as the result is concerned, I'm mildly disappointed as one could expect since I voted remain. I do not believe in isolationism and nationalism, and was content to see us remain a member of the EU in a globalised environment.

Really I think this should have never happened, this was a decision too big and too complicated to be left to the general public regardless of their education status. We have politicians who should be working on these matters full time (Disregarding our opinions of them), rather than allowing propaganda on both sides of the argument to swing the rest of us who really don't know as much as we claim to about the matter.

What's done is done however. As it stands we won't be undertaking the action of leaving the EU until someone enacts Article 50, which so far no politician is keen to do.

It's nice and sunny outside, so I'm going to ride my bicycle. Much more fulfilling than worrying about what's in the news today.

Jack

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:09 pm 
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LNERlover5 wrote:
...Really I think this should have never happened, this was a decision too big and too complicated to be left to the general public regardless of their education status. We have politicians who should be working on these matters full time (Disregarding our opinions of them), rather than allowing propaganda on both sides of the argument to swing the rest of us who really don't know as much as we claim to about the matter.

Jack

My friend, I think you need to have a serious look back at the history books with reference to the likes of Stalin, Trotsky, Hitler, Idi Armin etc., etc., and even Winston Churchill (who threatened to send the army to shoot British striking miners). These "politicians" decided that their judgement was far better than that of the likes of us mere plebs. Their judgement cost the lives of millions of people. I wouldn't trust a politician to tell me the time - and nor should you. It is the elctorate that is supposed to keep these people in check. If your age range/generation are of a mind to place full trust in politicians then I pity you and the suffering you will face if it ever comes to pass.

As Billy Connelly once said, the mere fact that someone WANTS to become a politician should bar them from ever being one. If you look at the British parliament, most of them are failed solicitors and barristers. They are power mad.

NEVER, EVER trust a politician.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:07 pm 
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Fortunately for those immigrants still wanting to get into a closed Britain, there is an easy way in. Simply fly into Dublin and get the bus up to Belfast. Bingo! Apparently the EU's only border with the UK will remain wide open.

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:46 pm 
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Warbo40 wrote:
The truth is that only 30% of 18-24 year olds bothered to go out and vote so if anyone is to blame it's the 18-24 year olds who had better things to do and couldn't be bothered about their own futures. :lol: :roll:


I'm 37 - so I can't speak for them - but if I was 18-24 and in their shoes, I'd be confused as hell as a voter.

For the last 8 years or so, British politics has been very broken. The public have become very disgruntled with the way things are going in the House Of Common. Someone that is 18 would have been watching all this farce since the age of 10 - so I certainly wouldn't blame them for wanting to opt out of voting.

Lets start with the Blair / Brown handover. Nobody voted Brown to be PM (OK, so you don't vote in a Prime Minister - you vote for your local MP representing a particular party in the House Of Commons - but in general elections, many people vote for the party they want in government). Then there's Peter Mandelson - who had a cabinet role, despite not being an MP. Nobody had elected him to represent us, the tax paying public that pay his wages, in the House Of Commons.

Then there was all the expenses saga that dragged on for ages, and other high profile court cases involving MPs that resulted in a huge drop in trust and confidence from the public.

Then there was the 2010 General Election. Clegg and Cameron formed a coalition government - and Clegg gained his votes on the promise to students in the Lib-Dem manifesto that he would reduce University fees. He then got into coalition government with the Tories - and agreed to RAISE tuition fees. The one politician that students thought they had on their side stabbed them in the back. In addition to that, people vote for MPs and/or parties based on their manifesto - but we ended up with a government that came into power with a mish-mash of pledges from bits of both manifestos and many "deals" being done between them which the public did not vote for.

Then there's the 2015 general election. The one where the Tories got into government despite only having 37% of the countries votes. The vast majority of the country voted against the Tories - but yet we ended up with the Tories anyway due to an ancient, out of date, unfit for purpose voting system. UKIP had the third highest amount of votes with over 12% of the votes - Yet the SNP only had 5% of the votes - despite those figures, UKIP got ONE MP in the House of Commons - whilst the SNP got 56 MPs. How can it be fair that a party with 1/3 less votes ends up with 56 MPs - whilst the party with three times as many votes gets 1 MP? It's an absolutely bonkers system.

Now, since Friday, we have the situation where we're effectively without a government and without an opposition. The Tories are in turmoil with a split across the party and a leader that is "winding down" ready to leave - and Labour are also in turmoil because their cabinet members are dropping like flies with a leader that nobody has any confidence in. The only stable parties are virtually irrelevant at the moment. I bet the average person on the street doesn't even know the name of the Lib-Dem leader, the other parties have about as much chance of getting any "power" under the current voting system as I have of going to the moon dressed in a polar bear costume.

I know an EU referendum is a completely different kettle of fish to "normal" voting - but it's the same old politicians waffling at the end of the day - for example, Gideon of the "in" campaign trying to claim that every household would be £32,000 worse off if they voted leave (not to mention the blackmail threat of an "emergency budget" which promised tax rises) - and Boris of the "out" campaign claiming outrageous things if the UK remained too. Last week, Boris and Cameron were backstabbing each other - and then hours after the result, Boris allegedly wrote a letter supporting Cameron asking him not to resign. MPs are back-stabbing and choosing to be pally-pally with their colleagues as and when it suits them for the sake of progressing their own career - so how the hell can us public trust them? We can't take these morons seriously - and once they're voted in, we're lumbered with them for 5 years. They can rip their manifesto up and do as they please with no accountability until 5 years later.

I think people of all ages are disillusioned with politics at the moment - but the younger ones in particular haven't seen the "better" days of British politics (not that its ever been perfect - but at the moment, its a sham) so they don't really know any better.


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:43 am 
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Just read a brilliant poem ................


‘Won’t you join our Common Market?’ said the spider to the fly,
‘It really is a winner and the cost is not too high’
‘I know De Gaulle said ’’Non’’, but he hadn’t got a clue,
‘We want you in, my friends and I, for we have plans for you.

‘You’ll have to pay a little more than we do, just for now,
‘As Herr Kohl said, and I agree, we need a new milch cow,
‘It’s just a continental term, believe me, mon ami,
‘Like ‘’Vive la France’’ or ‘’Mad Anglais’’ or even ‘’E.E.C.’’.

‘As to the rules, don’t worry friend, there’s really but a few
‘You’ll find that we ignore them - but they all apply to you.
‘Give and share between us, that’s what it’s all about,
‘You do all the giving, and we all share it out.

‘It’s very British, is it not, to help a friend in need?
‘You’ve done it twice in two World Wars, a fact we must concede,
‘So climb aboard the Market Train, don’t sit there on the side,
‘Your continental cousins want to take you for a ride’

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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:16 pm 
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Hi

Does anyone know why we had a referendum? Boris and various other leave campaigners are now saying that leaving the EU will have very little impact on immigration and they're all now saying that there isn't £350 million to spend on the NHS after all. There is indecision about whether we will have to join the single market and have to accept freedom of movement and payment of contributions as a condition of the deal.

As an exercise to shut the Conservative leave group up and neutralise Farrage it has backfired in spectacular fashion. What it has achieved is to split both the main political parties, and the whole country. It could well eventually lead to the break up of the Union as it's given Sturgeon the opportunity to push for another referendum in Scotland. Worst of all the tone of the leave campaign has caused racism to rear its ugly head again. I know that racism has always been there but this campaign seems to have brought it back out into the open.

What they have done is raise expectations in the country that it appears they now have no intention of honouring. Unfortunately the Labour Party is in no position to hammer home the point so it looks like the Tories are going to have a free ride on this one.

I've been left with the impression that none of the leave side expected to win and so had no plans about what to do if they won, which is why they all vanished over the weekend while they tried to come up with something. They should have been out there reassuring the country that things would work out all right instead of funking it and hiding. It reminds me of the two Gulf Wars where we got stuck in but had no idea of what to do after it was all over.

Cameron has a lot to answer for.

Regards

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:56 pm 
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With all this referendum business, I was behind a foreign couple in the checkout queue in Tescos earlier today when the cashier asked them if they "wanted any help with the packing?"

Blimey, I thought, that started quicker than I expected!

Gam :D


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:08 pm 
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Kennilworth wrote:
...I've been left with the impression that none of the leave side expected to win and so had no plans about what to do if they won, which is why they all vanished over the weekend while they tried to come up with something. They should have been out there reassuring the country that things would work out all right instead of funking it and hiding. It reminds me of the two Gulf Wars where we got stuck in but had no idea of what to do after it was all over.

Cameron has a lot to answer for.

Regards

Brian

I voted out, Brian, but I agree with much of what you say. I think politicians generally should take the blame for all the lies and deceipt on both sides. However, you have to say the main culprits are the government. They called the referendum but clearly made no contingency plans for a "Leave" vote because they were so cock sure nobody would dare go against their scaremongering and would swallow their lies hook, line and sinker.

For 3 days the country sank into the mud amid the deafening silence from the Tory ranks. Just when the country needed some leadership, just when many people needed some reassurance that the end of the world was not nigh, the two main figures in the government (the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer) went AWOL. No doubt busy moving their own personal fortunes to some safer haven instead of trying to calm the rampant bullshit being spouted in the press. And it was all compounded by Cameron. The man at the helm, paid top dollar to sort out the problems when the sh*t hits the fan. His only solution?, "Sorry Folks. I'm off. See ya!"

It just shows you the calibre of tosser we have in Westminster these days. Five star, the lot of 'em.

Then you have the arrogance of these Labour MP's to screw up the main opposition party just to serve their own interests at a time when the country is completely rudderless. What planet are they on? As I've said before, there is much that Corbyn says or believes in that I don't agree with. However, he and the Labour party were currently the best and only alternative we had IMHO - Oh, and he was elected by 60% of the Labour party membership, the man in the street. But that doesn't seem to matter a hoot to these self-serving, arrogant, middle class idiots who've never known life on the bottom rung of the ladder.

The lies about how we'd all go broke within the hour and so and so forth have not come to pass. In fact the markets are already recovering - and that's in spite of the useless Chancellor and his party, not because of.

It's time to show some backbone. Something this country has been sadly lacking in for a long time. We've been too busy listening to all the politically correct whimps who are offended by every other sentence that somebody they disagree with writes or says. It's time to "grow a pair" and stand up and be counted. We need positive action on jobs, law and order, education and all the other things. Not some Labour/Tory party circus about who the next "personality" in Downing Street is going to be.

Dave

(PS. Gamrouche :lol: :lol: :lol: )


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:22 am 
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Kennilworth wrote:
Does anyone know why we had a referendum?


Because Cameron was afraid of the rise of UKIP and thought that by offering a referendum, he could pull potential UKIP voters over to the Tories.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Cameron was so arrogant and confident in the belief that only a small percentage of the population would vote leave, he thought he could offer the referendum without the fear of the masses ever voting to leave. Cameron never ever wanted a referendum.

Oh how that backfired. Now, because he didn't see the result coming, he's thrown his toys out of the pram and let someone else take over because it hasn't gone the way he wanted.

That must be one of the biggest underestimates of public opinion and own-goals ever seen in British politics. It's absolutely delightful to see that it's happened to the Tories too. With Cameron's massive own-goal here, and Osborne's forecast continually being way out followed by numerous U-turns, this must be one of the most short-sighted and out of touch governments ever.

It's just a real shame that they're only getting away with all these blunders because the opposition parties are also dire at the moment - especially Labour, who are trying to force Corbyn out because he's an old-skool MP with traditional labour values - not Blair Mk2 - which is the leader Labour are looking for. Labour seem to want to continue to go down the Tory-lite path, rather than going back to their core values of pre-Blair.


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:59 am 
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Worst of all the tone of the leave campaign has caused racism to rear its ugly head again. I know that racism has always been there but this campaign seems to have brought it back out into the open.


Maybe but there are also remain people calling Leave supporters racist Nazis and so on, there are bad elements on both sides as there always has been, just that the media has decided all of a sudden it's news worthy and time to try and sway opinion away from leave towards the remain camp. I think one official source stated that there has not actually been any increase in racist incidents, go figure.

UKIP? I suspect they are probably finished now, if anything I predict we will see a new political party or parties emerging, Gang of Four time again methinks ;o)


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:44 am 
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Hi again

Both sides spouted complete rubbish during the campaign but whatever the remain camp said is irrelevant now as leave won and therefore have to deliver the goods. I very much doubt that UKIP is finished if Boris and Co don't deliver on immigration. If that happens then I can see UKIP becoming even more popular and an even bigger thorn in the side of the Tories.

Corbins biggest problem is that he is a man of principle which is normally a good thing but a poor quality for a leader, particularly of a political party. You have to be prepared to compromise, lie and cheat to get all the different factions to pull together and he's failed spectacularly with that. It was glaringly obvious during the campaign that his heart wasn't in remain even though it was Labour party policy. If he'd made a bit more effort he wouldn't be in the position that he now finds himself. He has no experience of statesmanship and with the best will in the world I can't see him as Prime Minister. I've been a Labour supporter all of my life but while Corbin stays in charge I will be voting for some other party in the event of a General Election (definately not Tory or UKIP).

It's a bit early for official figures regarding the number of racist incidents as most of the ones I've seen reported have occured since the result became known. I don't use social media but my son does and he has told me that there has been a lot of racist comments on there and he has defriended (whatever that means) a number of people.

Regards

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Referendum: In or Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:36 pm 
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Hi chaps.

I voted to leave. Not because of what Vote Leave and what Johnson, Gove and/or Farage said. I don't listen to politicians, and haven't done for years.

I don't "listen" to the media either. No BBC, ITV, C4 or newspapers. Not one bit. I hear and read what they are saying, yes, but I don't take it on board.

What I did instead (and have been doing for years), was to read up on the internet about the history of the EU. The proper full history. Who was the person who envisioned it? Who were it's supporters? Why did we join it? What did the politicians of the day (Heath etc) do in regards to it? What has it done over the years? What is it's aim? Well, it was very interesting... :)


It's being discussed at the moment what exactly happens next: Is there a plan for us to leave? What I will say is that there is a plan, it's just that the media and some people in politics are ignoring it. if you want to look (and I really would recommend you do) it's here; this has had over 90,000 or so people viewing it online, including civil-servants. Much of what it says is, I believe, actually being done, or being talked about by politicians. This is the synopsis version; http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcitlite.pdf

Quote:
Really I think this should have never happened, this was a decision too big and too complicated to be left to the general public regardless of their education status. We have politicians who should be working on these matters full time (Disregarding our opinions of them), rather than allowing propaganda on both sides of the argument to swing the rest of us who really don't know as much as we claim to about the matter.
Oh that's a real shame, mate. I for one really liked the fact that you, as a perfectly capable person, were able to voice your opinion about what you thought best for your country. Don't be so down on yourself. I'm sure you really can work things out on your own, you don't need some politician to tell you what is right.


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