Class 158 Info

[cyberdonblue]

Hi Brendan. Glad my little bit of input has helped you in some small way. Perhaps the best way to answer your questions here would be to take them in order:

So what's your livery of choice then?

Quite simply, the original livery as delivered to B.R. when they were first built (sorry, I haven't got any pictures.) I always felt that it looked really classy, something rather upmarket; although they deteriorated badly internally once the public had defaced and abused them for a few months. Sadly though, like all "Sprinter" trains, they were the start of a new generation of cheap and nasty plastic interiors.

So even in notch 7 you wouldn't get wheel slip in normal conditions?

That's right. Only in drizzly conditions or very heavy rain/snow (or on contaminated rail surfaces) would Sprinters of any class slip when opening to notch 7 from the off.

I'm guessing for each brake step the brake cylinder pressures are 1 bar, 2 bar and 3 bar. Do you know if that would be right?

To be be honest with you Brendan, I can't remember. Once they started putting stuff in foreign languages (I'm an old fashioned Englishman) instead of psi then a lot of us footplatemen just sort of "switched off." About the only thing I remember in Bar was when we got the Class 56's from Rumania at Saltley and I learnt that we had to have 5 bar in the train pipe - hence that stuck with me that 5 bar was 72.5 psi. I think the reservoir pressures were between 7.8 bar and 9.5 bar (114 psi - 140 psi) but little else sticks with me though, I'm ashamed to say. Nothing was ever that uniform (1 bar, 2 bar, 3 bar etc) with trains though, as you can see from the reservoir pressures, and most drivers only cared about the air pressure required to fill the reservoirs and release the brakes. I dare say there are few drivers around now with my seniority who could remember what the brake cylinder pressures are supposed to be. We knew roughly where the needles should be pointing but, more importantly, we knew instantly from the feeling through the driving seat (just like flying by the seat of your pants) whether the brakes felt right or not. "They" never seemed to choose simple whole numbers for anything, especially when all that decimal crap started coming around. Maybe Dave (Nexusdj) can fill in a bit of technical stuff here with regard to brake cylinder air pressures. He has a great knack of finding the required details.

Does that mean when braking you could/would just leave the throttle in a particular notch when applying some brake to reduce speed to a certain level, rather than cut the throttle first, and normal power would resume once you released the brakes?

No, sadly not. Once traction power was cut off you had to return the throttle to the closed position before you could take power again. The brake controller would, of course, also have to be returned to the off position before the driver could retake power as normal.

Ah, so all those switches behind the driving position are actually trip switches. I take it they should all be up then?
I actually have those switches modelled but there's a few blanks in the labels. Would you happen to remember what was on all the switch labels? (this trainz content creation lark has turned me into a right little rivet counter )
What's a B.I.S.!

Yes, they're mcb's (miniature circuit breakers.) Anything pointing upwards is "ON", anything pointing downwards usually means you've got trouble. I can't remember the order for the mcb's but maybe a couple of pictures might help:



The "Wheel Slip" mcb was not covered and sealed originally. It was modified to stop us drivers from using one of our cheats. In hot weather it wasn't unusual for one of the engines to shut down (or both if you were really unlucky) - most of these events were due to "high water temperature" rather than low radiator water levels. In order to restart the engine the driver would need to place the direction selector into the neutral position. However, if you did that whilst moving you would get an emergency brake application and come to a shuddering halt. Not good. So, as a group (the old B.R. drivers always co-operated with each other) we learnt over a period of time that if the wheel slip mcb tripped, the speedometer immediately stopped working. The next step then was to see if it actually fooled the Unit's elctronics into thinking the Unit was stationary - which, of course, we found out that it did. So, the simple solution to losing an engine enroute was to trip the Wheel Slip mcb, put the Unit in Neutral, restart the engine (not always possible but more times than not it would start,) reselect "forward" on the direction selector and then, finally, reset the Wheel Slip mcb. It was usually enough to get you out of a sticky situation (if you were going up a steep hill or something) but it wasn't a long term solution. Naturally, the boss men didn't like us doing it so... sealed off.



The B.I.S is the "Battery Isolating Switch" which renders the Unit electrically dead if turned to the isolate postion. It is found on the outside of the Class 158 (and all diesel Units to the best of my knowledge.) I've put a red circle around it in the above picture for you. The positions were marked "ON" or "ISOLATE." Top and bottom was Isolate, left and right was On.The selector is a two handled affair with a sort of pointy arrow in the middle at the point of rotation. Whichever label the arrow points at indicates the current selected mode. You can turn the handles either clockwise or anticlockwise. There's no right way or wrong way to turn it. You simply please yourself.



There were also lists of codes (often in different places in most unit's cabs lol!) for the electronic Destination Indicator (below.) Amazingly, you eventually learnt a lot of them without even referring to the list:



I knicked the picture above off the internet so apologies to the original poster.

As for the speedo, yes it only goes up to 100 mph but the bar that stops the needle is further round the guage (I never managed to get the needle that far round though) so that's why I said "about" just short of 105 mph.

Anyway Brendan, I hope that information helps you out. I'm always around at some point so ask and I'll do my best to answer as best I can.

Cheers

Dave

[Marky7890]

https://anticsonline.uk/N425/N1731/N130 ... inter.html

This was the Regional Railways livery

[cyberdonblue]

That's the one, Mark. I'm afraid even recent history is all a blur to me these days (so is last week sometimes )

Cheers

Dave

[bj1888]

This was the Regional Railways livery

Quite simply, the original livery as delivered to B.R. when they were first built

So it's these ones

I'm guessing for each brake step the brake cylinder pressures are 1 bar, 2 bar and 3 bar. Do you know if that would be right?

To be be honest with you Brendan, I can't remember.

No probs Dave. Going by the training video I mentioned earlier it looks like step 3 is just under 3 bar and step 1 is about 0.8 bar (which in the game feels very weak, but then maybe that's how it should be). Step 2 remains a mystery for now. I think 1,2 and 3 bar feels ok though.

Does that mean when braking you could/would just leave the throttle in a particular notch when applying some brake to reduce speed to a certain level, rather than cut the throttle first, and normal power would resume once you released the brakes?

No, sadly not. Once traction power was cut off you had to return the throttle to the closed position before you could take power again. The brake controller would, of course, also have to be returned to the off position before the driver could retake power as normal.

Yeah, I thought it would be like that and that's actually the way I had it except for step 1, corrected now of course .


Your mcb photos have helped me fill in all the blanks on the labels except the one circled. If you know what it is then great, if not then I guess that label just fell off and is lost somewhere underneath the driver's seat.



Thanks also for the details about the Wheel Slip mcb. I'm actually quite tempted to try and script the engine shutdown behaviour and the Wheel Slip mcb trick you describe but I suspect the novelty would wear off quite quickly after the engine shuts down for the umpteenth time. I do think it's one of those little things that could add to the train driving sim aspect of trainz though so it's food for thought.

There were also lists of codes (often in different places in most unit's cabs lol!) for the electronic Destination Indicator (below.) Amazingly, you eventually learnt a lot of them without even referring to the list:

I have one big list of destination codes although the codes are different compared to your photo. I would have liked to add regional lists to the cab but I don't think sorting the codes into regions would be practical.
As it is you just click the little 'i' in the corner of the HUD and a HTML window pops up that includes the codes.



Well you've been really helpful again Dave, thanks.

Brendan

[cyberdonblue]

So it's these one's

Yes, those are the ones, Brendan.

Your mcb photos have helped me fill in all the blanks on the labels except the one circled. If you know what it is then great, if not then I guess that label just fell off and is lost somewhere underneath the driver's seat.

I'm afraid I can't help you with that one. I think it might be a modification made since I retired so not something I have any knowledge of. It certainly doesn't look familiar to me - but then, I have a lot of blanks and memory lapses these days . The oddity is, though, it's a double mcb and I don't really recall coming across any of those on Class 158's in my time. To be strictly honest though, most Sprinters fell down for more or less the same reasons and it was rarely the major stuff that you were warned about when training on them. Water leaks, high water temperature, low oil levels that sort of thing were the most common ones; exactly the same problems that we had with the old DMU's in their dying days really. The same way, any failures due to mcb's tripping, whilst quite rare, were always the same types too (low battery volts, earth faults etc. or occasionally AWS failures [not mcb related].) Hence if you heard that horrible little "click" behind you then you naturally turned round and looked at the same culprits every time so they were the ones that stuck in your memory.

Thanks also for the details about the Wheel Slip mcb. I'm actually quite tempted to try and script the engine shutdown behaviour and the Wheel Slip mcb trick you describe but I suspect the novelty would wear off quite quickly after the engine shuts down for the umpteenth time. I do think it's one of those little things that could add to the train driving sim aspect of trainz though so it's food for thought.

It very quickly became tiresome in reality when the weather was very hot and sunny. The cab was like a sauna and a troublesome engine would always make a nuisance of itself at some point. Once it began playing up you'd get it to restart for no more than a few minutes each time before it died again; several restarts would be needed to keep you running to time and it was always a pleasure to get off at your destination.

One summer Sunday evening (about 9.30 pm) I brought a raft of 12 cars (6 x 158's) back to Tyseley from Nottingham via Stenson Junction (past Castle Donnington) for overnight maintenance/repairs to minor ailments. There was a permanent 30 mph restriction round the [former] Chellaston [Junction] curve, a longish left hand turn, and looking back along the train was the most majestic sight I had seen for years. The memory still brings a beaming smile to my face. I must be getting old(er.)

Well you've been really helpful again Dave, thanks.

My pleasure Brendan. Always glad to help ...and you brought back some happy memories for me.

Cheers

Dave

[klambert]

I think the label above that reads GSM-R for the radio.

[bj1888]

I think the label above that reads GSM-R for the radio.

Thanks Klambert.

[bj1888]

Here's a couple of more questions.

First off, how do you actually operate the sander?
Do you press the button and the sander runs until you press the button again, just like in the game?
Or do you press the button to get a few seconds of sanding?
Or do you have to keep the button pressed to get sand?
Something else?

Also does the sander button light up when you press it?


Finally, in the real cab there's a blue light above the AWS sunflower that seems to have labels on either side of it. Anybody know what they say? I think it's something do with the doors being open. I'm also assuming that light comes on when the doors are open. Would that be right?


Thanks,
Brendan

[cyberdonblue]

Here's a couple of more questions.

First off, how do you actually operate the sander?
Do you press the button and the sander runs until you press the button again, just like in the game?
Or do you press the button to get a few seconds of sanding?
Or do you have to keep the button pressed to get sand?
Something else?

On BR in general, you would press and hold the Sand button to get a continuous sand feed (in your dreams - there usually wasn't any sand or it was soaking wet and wouldn't come through the jets anyway) and the supply would stop when you released the button. That was the theory anyway.

Also does the sander button light up when you press it?

No. There was never any indication that the sanders were working (and they usually weren't.) Feeling improved tractive grip would be your only detection method (and you'd die of shock if they did actually work.) Wheelslip could be managed in other ways, and usually was, but wheelslide could cause you nightmares. At times and without sand you could be left in the lap of the gods if it got really bad. It was a major culprit behind many a SPAD or station overrun. Following privatisation, even very minor SPADs became sackable offences unless you could prove that the Unit was at fault (and it often was. No sand or, more often than not, Sanders not working at all.)

Finally, in the real cab there's a blue light above the AWS sunflower that seems to have labels on either side of it. Anybody know what they say? I think it's something do with the doors being open. I'm also assuming that light comes on when the doors are open. Would that be right?


Thanks,
Brendan

This is known as the "Traction Interlock Indicator." It basically tells the Driver that the doors are shut, all the electrical safety equipment to prove that they're shut is working, the brakes can be released and the Driver can now take power if he so wishes (having been signalled "Safe to proceed," by the Guard of course.) When the Guard presses the "Doors Open" buttons the Traction Interlock Indicator goes out and a full brake application is registered in the cab. There is also a "Traction Interlock Switch" (T.I.S.). Very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. It normally had a seal attached to it and if it was used, amongst other things, a record of its use had to be entered into the "Repair Book" in order to ensure that the seal was replaced at the depot. There are (or there used to be in BR days) very strict instructions about detraining passengers and taking the Unit out of service if the "Traction Interlock Switch" was operated because it meant that you no longer had any warning about the potential for doors to be open (which would normally cause a full brake application but not with a TIS operated) and no "Pass Comms - communication chord in old money. If I remember right, it would also cause the bodyside (orange) lights to remain illuminated even with the doors closed. It was, and I presume still is, a very serious offence to take a Unit into service without this seal in place (and one or two other seals too) or with TIS in the isolatd position. The latter would probably result in the Driver losing his job. It was part of the Driver's preparation checks to ensure that all of these seals were there and fitted properly and that all MCBs were set and fully operative before leaving a maintenance depot.

Hope all that lot helps Brendan. Probably a bit more than you asked for but I blame it on the "lockdown." I haven't spoken to anyone face to face for weeks now and I think I must be getting twitchy

Stay safe .

Cheers

Dave

[PFX]

Finally, in the real cab there's a blue light above the AWS sunflower that seems to have labels on either side of it. Anybody know what they say? I think it's something do with the doors being open. I'm also assuming that light comes on when the doors are open. Would that be right?

Hi Brendan,

I've had a quick look at the Armstrong Powerhouse Class 158 cab and although it's no substitute for real world experience like Dave's, their modelling is usually highly accurate. The text either side of the blue light reads

DOORS RELEASED
WHEN LIT

'Doors' and 'When' being on the left of the light.

Cheers,
Innis

[cyberdonblue]

You're quite right, Innis, but it's still a Traction Interlock Indicator. It's about 10 years since I've even seen a 158 let alone been in the cab plus the fact many of these systems evolve and change over time. "Door open" warning lights always used to be red at one time but then they became all sorts (blue, yellow, white...). My old brain ain't as sharp as I think it is sometimes and my memories do get a bit distorted in the mists.

Cheers

Dave

[bj1888]

Hope all that lot helps Brendan. Probably a bit more than you asked for but I blame it on the "lockdown." I haven't spoken to anyone face to face for weeks now and I think I must be getting twitchy

Stay safe .

Thanks Dave. I hope you're keeping well. Your detailed explanations have been a great help and are always welcome as they've given me a good insight into how the train runs and info about little details I would never have known or thought about.

I've had a quick look at the Armstrong Powerhouse Class 158 cab and although it's no substitute for real world experience like Dave's, their modelling is usually highly accurate. The text either side of the blue light reads

DOORS RELEASED
WHEN LIT

'Doors' and 'When' being on the left of the light.

Thanks Innis. That's another little bit ticked off the todo list...

When the Guard presses the "Doors Open" buttons the Traction Interlock Indicator goes out

...but, I'm a little bit confused now about when this indicator is illuminated and after much head scratching I concluded "doors open" and "doors released" are two different things so this is my best guess at the right sequence.

Train stops.
Guard releases doors.
Light comes on.
Guard opens doors.
Light goes out.
Wait.
Guard closes doors.
Light comes on.
Guard signals "safe to proceed".
Guard locks doors.
Light goes out.

Is this even remotely close, although it's not as if anyone will notice or care when the light is on or off lol.

and a full brake application is registered in the cab.

So there is an automatic full brake application when the doors are opened regardless of the brake lever position?

Cheers,
Brendan

[ScottAS2]

When the Guard presses the "Doors Open" buttons the Traction Interlock Indicator goes out

...but, I'm a little bit confused now about when this indicator is illuminated and after much head scratching I concluded "doors open" and "doors released" are two different things so this is my best guess at the right sequence.

Train stops.
Guard releases doors.
Light comes on.
Guard opens doors.
Light goes out.
Wait.
Guard closes doors.
Light comes on.
Guard signals "safe to proceed".
Guard locks doors.
Light goes out.

Is this even remotely close, although it's not as if anyone will notice or care when the light is on or off lol.

My understanding is that it's the other way round: any time the doors can't be detected as all closed and locked, the traction interlock light will go out and the driver won't be able to take power. See this 80s BR training video (admittedly not on a 158) for more details including operating the traction interlock switch, and BR's dodgiest-looking guard.

[cyberdonblue]

My understanding is that it's the other way round: any time the doors can't be detected as all closed and locked, the traction interlock light will go out and the driver won't be able to take power. See this 80s BR training video (admittedly not on a 158) for more details including operating the traction interlock switch, and BR's dodgiest-looking guard.

And you are perfectly correct, Scott. I was trying to be clever yesterday and do 3 different things at once - including almost letting my baby cockatiel escape through an open door - and so my tepid brain wasn't exactly on the boil. I should have kept my mouth shut and just done one job at a time (thank god the kettle is electric and turns ITSELF off.) My apologies to everyone for getting things back to front.

The subject of doors can be a little confusing, depending on the terminology people choose to use. Put very simply, first of all the Guard must unlock and turn on the door controls at his local position. Only one local position can be turned on at any given time. Attempting to power up more than one gives the Driver a heart attack - a loud buzzer sounds continuously in all cabs and at the Guard's local position telling him that he's left his door control power switched on at another location. On National railways (I'm not 100% sure with these latest Units these days because I've never worked on them) the Guard doesn't actually open the doors - although I understand that things are different on London Underground these days where the Motorman actually opens the doors from the cab. On National railways (BR) the Guard "Releases" the doors or, more exactly, operates a circuit that cuts off the power to the solenoids above the doors and connects power to the local door buttons to allow local operation by the public.

The Guard's action illuminates the Traction Interlock Indicator (technically, a fault indication) at his own location as well as in ALL of the driving cabs within the train formation. It also illuminates the local door controls at every pair of doors, but only on the side of the train that they've been released, to show passengers that they're available for use. Passengers at the various door positions may then press the "Door Open" button and - as it says on the tin - open the doors. But only the pair of doors that they are stood in front of. Each pair of doors are independently operated locally in these circumstances.

There is also an air isolating cock above every pair of doors which, when operated, would allow the doors to be opened by hand with absolute ease. There are also some additional isolating cocks that are marked for public use and made highly visible as "Emergency Release" positions with instructions to passengers on how to use them in an emergency (break glass... etc).

Air pressure at 40 psi is used to open/close and hold closed the doors at each individual location and isolating the air pressure, naturally, makes that pair of doors inoperable. They then need to be physically locked closed by the Traincrew in order for Traction Interlock to be obtainable once more. Every pair of doors has a micro-switch fitted and if the doors fail to close, or close properly, then the Traction Interlock Indicator will stay illuminated and the brakes will not release. This is usually accompanied by an orange bodyside light illuminated on the affected coach.

When the Guard presses his "Doors Close" button, ALL the doors will close simultaneously and the Traction Interlock Indicator and local door controls will no longer be illuminated - provided that all doors close properly. The Guard makes a quick visual check that all is OK and then gives the "Train Ready to Start" signal to the Driver (or two on the buzzer to us mere mortals.)

Sorry for any previous confusion. It's not something I've had to think about for long time.

Cheers

Dave

[bj1888]

Thanks Dave and Scott for clearing that up.

Sorry for any previous confusion. It's not something I've had to think about for long time.

No worries Dave. I suppose my silly little questions are at least giving the old memory banks a work out and now you've put the idea into my head of adding an animated guard .

Brendan